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Thread: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan' [W:479]

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    It was quite logical for Putin to be concerned that Sevastopol was insecure and subject to NATO annexation. He unquestionably made the right move there. Loosing their warm water port, is simply no option for Russia.
    Only it wasn't insecure, it wasn't even close to NATO annexation. There was no hint of anything happening to Sevastopol. If someone had tried something they would be in the right to defend themselves, NOT to annex part of another country.
    Basically you are saying if someone makes up a story about something possibly happening somewhere then another country can invade and annex anyone they want.
    Time to invade Cuba.
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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    Only it wasn't insecure, it wasn't even close to NATO annexation. There was no hint of anything happening to Sevastopol. If someone had tried something they would be in the right to defend themselves, NOT to annex part of another country.
    Basically you are saying if someone makes up a story about something possibly happening somewhere then another country can invade and annex anyone they want.
    Time to invade Cuba.
    The point being, Putin's concern was reasonable. To wait for any execution would then mean certain military confrontation. His move avoided that altogether. You need to understand something. Russia is not going to loose their warm water port, and they're not going to allow Ukraine to go NATO.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    The point being, Putin's concern was reasonable. To wait for any execution would then mean certain military confrontation. His move avoided that altogether. You need to understand something. Russia is not going to loose their warm water port, and they're not going to allow Ukraine to go NATO.
    Do you have any evidence whatsoever that NATO had plans to move on Sevastopol ?

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Do you have any evidence whatsoever that NATO had plans to move on Sevastopol ?
    Do you have anything that suggested I did. I said that Putin respond to US/EU involvement in Kiev, and apparently looked down the field and anticipated the possibility of this being another NATO expansion, and as such, a threat to Sevastopol. It would not be the kind of thing that they would take a wait and see approach. Securing it that moment would be far less expensive, and far less controversial than having to move in in the event that Ukraine had followed with a movement of military fortifications to Crimea and announced that those bases would no longer be available to Russia. You need to realise something, Russia is going to retain Sevastopol.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    I am glad to hear that you recognise the illegality of US adventurism in those places!
    Yet you still refuse to recognize Russian illegality and adventurism in Crimea/Ukraine. Without a quid-pro-quo that applies equally ... the international system for avoiding conflict is unworkable.


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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    The point being, Putin's concern was reasonable. To wait for any execution would then mean certain military confrontation. His move avoided that altogether. You need to understand something. Russia is not going to loose their warm water port, and they're not going to allow Ukraine to go NATO.
    You have to understand something also. Putin may have forcefully prevented any Ukraine association with NATO, but he also lost that country. He also did both himself and Russia irreparable harm in the eyes of the international community. Putin's Eurasian Economic Union is floundering. Russia's economy is cratering and European nations are now actively searching for energy alternatives to negate Putin's blackmail card. NATO will be re-arming. Even Belarus and Kazakhstan now understand the peril of being too closely aligned with Putin. When you add all the pluses and minuses, Putin has succeeded wildly in corralling Russia into an ever-shrinking patch of trust and viability.


    Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet. -- Marine Corps General James 'Chaos' Mattis

    Repeal and Replace Trump.

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Do you have anything that suggested I did. I said that Putin respond to US/EU involvement in Kiev,
    What EU/US involvement in Kiev ? I'm still waiting for your evidence ?

    and apparently looked down the field and anticipated the possibility of this being another NATO expansion, and as such, a threat to Sevastopol.
    If every nation in the world were to respond with armed force to something its neighbours might do the globe would be a smoking cinder. How can you possibly justify Russias actions in such terms ?

    It would not be the kind of thing that they would take a wait and see approach. Securing it that moment would be far less expensive, and far less controversial than having to move in in the event that Ukraine had followed with a movement of military fortifications to Crimea and announced that those bases would no longer be available to Russia. You need to realise something, Russia is going to retain Sevastopol.
    Pure fantasy as usual

    In 2010 Ukraine and Russia had signed the Kharkiv pact guaranteeing Russia's Black Sea Fleet base until 2042 and beyond so there never was any threat to its status

    Kharkiv Pact - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Last edited by flogger; 02-23-15 at 11:23 AM.

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    Yet you still refuse to recognize Russian illegality and adventurism in Crimea/Ukraine. Without a quid-pro-quo that applies equally ... the international system for avoiding conflict is unworkable.
    In this one issue, I see Russia's response to the events that unfolded in Kiev as both reasonable, and predictable. To your other point, do you have an idea of one that would be workable?
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    You have to understand something also. Putin may have forcefully prevented any Ukraine association with NATO, but he also lost that country. He also did both himself and Russia irreparable harm in the eyes of the international community. Putin's Eurasian Economic Union is floundering. Russia's economy is cratering and European nations are now actively searching for energy alternatives to negate Putin's blackmail card. NATO will be re-arming. Even Belarus and Kazakhstan now understand the peril of being too closely aligned with Putin. When you add all the pluses and minuses, Putin has succeeded wildly in corralling Russia into an ever-shrinking patch of trust and viability.
    Your making a blanket all inclusive statement. The entire international community is not just Western States and their allies, even though that's all anybody is usually talking about when they say, "the international community"!! And if the rest of what you said is true, then where's your concern, you should be delighted.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    In this one issue, I see Russia's response to the events that unfolded in Kiev as both reasonable, and predictable. To your other point, do you have an idea of one that would be workable?
    If that is truly so then I shudder to think what response you would ever deem unreasonable.

    You are basically giving carte blanche to every tinpot dictator on earth to do likewise.

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