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Thread: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan' [W:479]

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by JP Cusick View Post
    No, it is still just your opinion, and nothing else.

    But opinions do count, and sharing opinions is what make for a discussion to happen.
    If you cannot make the simple differentiation between fact and opinion then there really isn't a lot more I can add.

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    If you cannot make the simple differentiation between fact and opinion then there really isn't a lot more I can add.
    I really did tell the difference in several comments posted in this thread.

    The one comment that I say demonstrates the difference the best is this one # 610 linked here =

    So yes I do indeed know the difference between opinion and fact.
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    Mr. Know-it-all, sir.

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by JP Cusick View Post
    I really did tell the difference in several comments posted in this thread.

    The one comment that I say demonstrates the difference the best is this one # 610 linked here =

    So yes I do indeed know the difference between opinion and fact.
    I'm more than happy to let others be the judge of that based on your input to date so perhaps you should stop digging.

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan' [W:479]

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    Previous Sanoma major stakeholders Aatos Erkko and his wife Jane Erkko are both deceased. They had no children. Their personal fortune is now administered by the Jane and Aatos Erkko Foundation which supports high-level international research, the arts, and culture via donations, grants, and scholarships. Sanoma Oyj is a publicly owned company and the current CEO and Chairman of the Executive Management Group is Harri-Pekka Kaukonen.
    Actually, the Erkko estate owns 30% plus in voting shares. You know like Murdoch owns a controlling majority of News Corp is established in Delware which only requires 33% ownership to establish majority.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    PS. Of course Aatos Erkko was anti-Russian. His father - Eljas Erkko - was a Finnish Foreign Minister who attempted to negotiate with the Soviets (unsuccessfully because the demands were too high). This led to the Russia-Finland Winter War (19391940). Aatos Erkko was also anti-American who railed against global US hegemony. On multiple occasions, he called the politics of the Bush government dangerous and the invasion of Iraq as a breach of international law. Erkko was instrumental in seeing Finland join the EU. With Russian aggression once again threatening Europe, Finland is now considering joining the NATO alliance.
    It goes further back the Eljas Erkko to his father, Eero who was a leading member of the Young Finnish Party and then the National Progressive Party. Aatos Erkko wasn't anti-American in any real sense and sure as hell supported Finnish move to the EU and NATO because it benefited his company. Arguing against US hegemony and against the invasion of Iraq doesn't make you anti-American. It's Common sense. But it never stopped him working for the CIA. He was named by Robert Trumbull Crowley who use to be Assistant Deputy Director for Operations (second in charge of National Clandestine Service) named him (Aatos Erkko) as a source. A source for the CIA is a person who can influence CIA's position or be used by the CIA to push their position (print lies or fake news).

    So here you are trying to hold up Moscow Times as your source without even know Aatos Erkko was a CIA source and named one by second in charge of the NCS.
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    Nothing I said was incorrect.
    How does an internal Ukrainian situation give Putin the right to secretly invade and annex part of another country?
    Nor did I say other wise, but nothing a I said was either.

    Invade? Russian troops have always been stationed in Crimea since 1991 per agreement.
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Yes indeed, but its the scale of the corruption and theft in this instance that marks it out. The sums involved here represent sizeable percentages of the countries GDP hence the subsequent Interpol involvement
    This is false. You think Petro Poroshenko and Yulia Tymoshenko are just as corrupt as Yanukovych. Hell it's even worse today.
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan' [W:479]

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    Actually, the Erkko estate owns 30% plus in voting shares. You know like Murdoch owns a controlling majority of News Corp is established in Delware which only requires 33% ownership to establish majority.



    It goes further back the Eljas Erkko to his father, Eero who was a leading member of the Young Finnish Party and then the National Progressive Party. Aatos Erkko wasn't anti-American in any real sense and sure as hell supported Finnish move to the EU and NATO because it benefited his company. Arguing against US hegemony and against the invasion of Iraq doesn't make you anti-American. It's Common sense. But it never stopped him working for the CIA. He was named by Robert Trumbull Crowley who use to be Assistant Deputy Director for Operations (second in charge of National Clandestine Service) named him (Aatos Erkko) as a source. A source for the CIA is a person who can influence CIA's position or be used by the CIA to push their position (print lies or fake news).

    So here you are trying to hold up Moscow Times as your source without even know Aatos Erkko was a CIA source and named one by second in charge of the NCS.
    Conspiratorial nonsense. Provide a quote from Crowley where he states in what capacity Erkko ever worked on behalf of the CIA. The "Crowley List" is nonsense.

    Evaluation of the Crowley List of "CIA Sources"

    Regardless the man's dead.
    Last edited by face, your; 02-21-15 at 03:33 AM.

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    Nor did I say other wise, but nothing a I said was either.

    Invade? Russian troops have always been stationed in Crimea since 1991 per agreement.
    A) Your "vacationing Russian troops" story isn't going to fly with anyone with even a modicum of common sense comrade.

    B) The war criminal Putin violated the terms of the Partition Treaty on the Status of the Black Sea Fleet on several points, namely it limited the number of Russian troops on the base, it required Russian troops to remain on the base, and it required them to check with Kiev every time new troops entered the Crimea

    Article 4

    1. The total number of personnel, the number of ships ships, weapons and equipment of the Black Sea Fleet Russian Federation who are pas territory of Ukraine, not will exceed the levels specified in the Agreement between Russian Federation and Ukraine on the parameters section Black Sea Fleet from the "28" in May 1997. 2. The Russian Party shall annually, before January 1, according to list agreed by the Parties shall inform the Ukrainian side of the total number of personnel and the main armament Russian Black Sea Fleet located at territory of Ukraine.

    Article 6

    1. Military units operate in places of deployment in accordance with the legislation of the Russian Federation, respect the sovereignty of Ukraine, observe its legislation and do not allow interference in the internal affairs Ukraine. 2. Economic activity of enterprises, organizations and institutions the Black Sea Fleet of the Russian Federation shall not contradict the legislation of Ukraine. 3. Public authorities to respect the status of Ukraine military formations, shall take appropriate and consistent with their command safety measures personal composition, protection of property rights and property military units, and do not interfere in their internal life. 4. Relationships of persons belonging to the military formations and their families with legal and physical Ukraine faces is governed by the relevant locations of the Parties treaties and laws of Ukraine.

    Article 15

    1. Transport troops, persons belonging to the military formations, following a single procedure and in part of military formations, weapons, military equipment and other logistical resources, and guard specialists, their attendants, all modes of transport, which are executed in the interests of the Black Sea Fleet of the Russian Federation, implemented on a priority basis to meet border, customs and other types of state control when crossing the Russian-Ukrainian border in accordance with the Ukrainian legislation. 2. Transport of dangerous goods and discharge are carried out in accordance with the signed December 23, 1993 in Ashgabat in within the Commonwealth of Independent States Agreement interstate transport of dangerous goods and discharge. 3. Special transport and military products appointments are made ​​in accordance with the contract May 26 1995 in Minsk within the Commonwealth of Independent States Agreement on the transport of goods and special products for military appointment. 4. Transportation using ships Navy, civilian agencies of the Russian courts Federation of Ukrainian ports were in compliance with Merchant Shipping Code of Ukraine, the corresponding port rules, rules of safety of navigation and environmental protection Fisheries and Ukraine. 5. Movement associated with the activities of military units outside their areas of deployment are carried out after coordination with the competent authorities of Ukraine.


    Partition Treaty on the Status and Conditions of the Black Sea Fleet - Wikisource, the free online library

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    This is false. You think Petro Poroshenko and Yulia Tymoshenko are just as corrupt as Yanukovych. Hell it's even worse today.
    If that is really the case I'd take your complaint up with Interpol then
    Last edited by flogger; 02-21-15 at 03:43 AM.

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by JP Cusick View Post
    I really did tell the difference in several comments posted in this thread.
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1064311938

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