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Thread: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan' [W:479]

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    You're never going to have it be a Neutral state. I'm telling you, either the Russians move in and take as much of the Ukraine as they please or the Ukrainians beat them back to the border of Russia, where either the Russians officially get involved or simply passively support the rebels and give them cover behind their borders. If you see another way, I'd love to hear it.
    I told you the way I see. Russia Will nót seek to invade and take over Ukraine. That would create more problems for them than it would solve. Neither does Ukraine have a future within the EU or NATO, unless you want to destroy the EU and NATO.

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    I've been to Ukraine many times my friend and they nearly all can speak Russian fluently.
    In my experience, there are a number of anomalies. For example, Russian is predominant in the city of Kharkiv, but not in Kharkivskaya Oblast itself. One finds this also to be the case in the city of Odessa and Odesskaya Oblast. One can go to any region of Ukraine and speak Russian without either persecution or comprehension problems. Most syllabus courses in Ukrainian universities are offered in three languages; Ukrainian, Russian, and English. English is considered an international language and is provided to attract foreign students. It is far less costly to obtain a degree in Ukraine than it would be in Britain, the US, or India.


    Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet. -- Marine Corps General James 'Chaos' Mattis

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by SBu View Post
    Whether or not it makes me feel better is irrelevant. The fact is that they are not 'banned'. It's like saying pigs can fly. It just isn't so.
    I haven't disputed that the ban isn't universally accepted.

    The Convention on Cluster Munitions (CCM) is an international treaty that prohibits the use, transfer and stockpile of cluster bombs, a type of explosive weapon which scatters submunitions ("bomblets") over an area. The convention was adopted on 30 May 2008 in Dublin,[6] and was opened for signature on 3 December 2008 in Oslo. It entered into force on 1 August 2010, six months after it was ratified by 30 states.[2] As of January 2015, 108 states have signed the treaty and 89 have ratified it or acceded to it.[3]
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleming View Post
    The facts are that about 75% of the population of the Donetsk region are Russian-speakers and about 70% of the population of the Luhansk region. The percentages are obviously even higher in the Crimea and Sevastopol.
    Yep, whatever happened to the virtue of self determination? A little hypocrisy huh.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    As much as some on here may want to believe, the US hasn't been in the game to "take over" countries, especially in Europe. If that was something we really wanted to do, we could of been in control of all of Europe between the Marshall Plan and the Fall of the Soviet Union. But we didn't, because we believe in letting these countries go off on their own power. The issue with Ukraine though I believe is that at this point, the best compromise is to split the Ukraine and have Western Ukraine join NATO. At that point, if Russia is really on a bender to take over Europe again, then they'd have to War with the West to do it. And on the other hand, they get to protect the ethnic Russians in the process.
    Seems to me Putin would jump on that compromise.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    I'd of supported it if Bush was a cronies for another country. In my book, that counts as a treason.

    I've asked others this, but I'm specifically addressing you with this because you have demonstrated that while we may disagree on a wide range of topics, you are at least fair minded for the most part and have shown intelligence in your post. I have proposed a compromise to this whole Ukrainian mess that I think is the only way to end the conflict and that is to break up Ukraine, have Russia do whatever it wants with the East and allow the West to join with NATO. If Russia really is concerned with it's counterparts in the region, then this gets them out from the rule of Kiev. On the other hand, if this is just Putin flexing Russian Military might, this puts a stop to the conflict unless Putin wants to expand this into a much larger conflict.
    Oh I agree. As a matter of fact, what Russia would have been fine with is for Ukraine to remain wholly independent, but within a Russian orbit of influence. Just like folks refuse to accept the stated reasons that so many Muslims in the Middle East are disgruntled with the US/West, instead ascribing their own reasons, we have people refusing to listen to what Putin has complained about for a decade or better. NATO has expanded East a dozen times since the collapse of the old Soviet Union. I believe we're seeing a foot down on this.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Oh I agree. As a matter of fact, what Russia would have been fine with is for Ukraine to remain wholly independent, but within a Russian orbit of influence. Just like folks refuse to accept the stated reasons that so many Muslims in the Middle East are disgruntled with the US/West, instead ascribing their own reasons, we have people refusing to listen to what Putin has complained about for a decade or better. NATO has expanded East a dozen times since the collapse of the old Soviet Union. I believe we're seeing a foot down on this.
    In this case, the bold statement are not mutually compatible though. To be honest, Putin doesn't fear a military invasion from the West, what he fears (and many of the old school Soviet era buddies do) is the influx of Western ideals. Making a country NATO just removes a card that Russia could play from their hand. Hence why Putin has fought so hard on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Seems to me Putin would jump on that compromise.
    Have you seen the peace agreement by any chance yet? I haven't seen it on any of the usual MSM outlets yet.
    Last edited by Hamster Buddha; 02-12-15 at 10:14 AM.

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Moderator's Warning:
    U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan' [W:479]Folks. The baiting and trolling going on here needs to stop. A lot of it is light, but it's becoming too repetitive at this point. One line posts that do nothing but run down another poster needs to stop. The insults to each other need to stop. And going forward in this thread the over the top attacking of another persons post needs to stop too because it's gotten way out of hand. Debate the topic civily.

    I'm currently reviewing the thread and action may be taken for violations prior to this warning

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleming View Post
    I am not driving at any point. The term "native speaker" does mean something. Does it mean that everybody who is a native Russian speaker wants to be annexed by Russia? Of course not. But what is equally ludicrous is the attempt by Some to assert that there are no regional differences in the Ukraine, that all of the Ukranian population support the current government in Kiev and there is no native rebellion in the East.
    As you can see by this demographic of the last census. You are asking the majority to bear a very high price indeed to accomodate the wants of a very small minority who have been stirred up by the Russians for their own ends after 23 years of living peacefully together. The ethnic Russians in Donetsk and Luhansk number about 1.5 million of Ukraines 45 million and don't even represent a majority in those oblasts

    UkraineNativeLanguagesCensus2001detailed-en.jpg
    Last edited by flogger; 02-12-15 at 11:15 AM.

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    No, they just do it to Muslim countries.
    I see this as very relevant, in that the USA had become accustomed to being the Bully against the more vulnerable Muslim Countries and the USA got cocky.

    Then we tried to push around Russia and found out that Russia is not going to be Bullied by our petty tactics.
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