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Thread: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan' [W:479]

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    By all means provide evidence that the only reason the protesters faced down Yanukovych's guns was because Washington stuffed their pockets with dollars when I suspect guns might have helped them more
    So, you suggest me to provide evidence how the most sophisticated and skilled secret service works? I think this is impossible until this secret service itself decides to tell us what happened and how that was.

    We had to wait for 60 years to find out how CIA overthrew Iranian prime-minister Mossadeq for his sympathies towards Soviet Union.

    In declassified document, CIA acknowledges role in '53 Iran coup

    Shortly after Mossadegh's election, the CIA began to plan his overthrow. The goal of the coup was to elevate the strength of Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi and appoint a new prime minister -- Gen. Fazlollah Zahedi.

    Before the coup, the agency -- along with the British Secret Intelligence Service -- helped foment anti-Mossadegh fervor using propaganda, according to CIA documents. "In Iran, CIA and SIS propaganda assets were to conduct an increasingly intensified effort through the press, handbills and the Tehran clergy in a campaign designed to weaken the Mossadeq government in any way possible," Wilber wrote.

    On August 19, 1953, the coup swung into full effect as the CIA and British intelligence agency helped pull pro-Shah forces together and organized large protests against Mossadegh.

    "The Army very soon joined the pro-Shah movement and by noon that day it was clear that Tehran, as well as certain provincial areas, were controlled by pro-Shah street groups and Army units," Wilber wrote. "By the end of 19 August ... members of the Mossadeq government were either in hiding or were incarcerated."

    In order to provide Zahedi, the country's new prime minister, with some stability, the "CIA covertly made available $5,000,000 within two days of Zahedi's assumptions of power."

    In declassified document, CIA acknowledges role in '53 Iran coup - CNN.com
    By the way, doesn't resemble something?

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    What it boils down to in the end is that Russia doesn't want a US ABM site potentially stationed in Ukraine where it could wipe out Russias ICBMs when they are in their slow boost phase with their MIRVs and decoys undeployed. Given most of the Russian ICBMs are stationed west of the Urals this is a very real threat. Thats why this whole thing had to happen now before Ukraine joined the EU of its own free will and started down the path of closer integration with the West. Ukraines right to self determination obviously comes a long way second to Russias security interests in the Kremlin. Hence we are where we are today
    I agree this is the real threat and maybe this is the main reason why it all has happened. But I don't agree about Ukraine's "free will". As I've said above, free will of Ukrainians expressed at normal peaceful elections does not confirm your statement.

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    Himself, yes. But the idea of another election in which someone from his party and social milieu could win isn't really very helpful to Ukraine. The only way to stop that would be to remove civil rights from whole areas of the Ukrainian populace who favor that, or to seperate them from the rest of Ukraine.
    And what does that mean? Apartheid regime? Dividing citizens on good ones, who votes for good parties, and bad ones, who can vote for bad parties (and hence must be deprived of civil rights)? Nice opinion.

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by MrFirst View Post
    So, you suggest me to provide evidence how the most sophisticated and skilled secret service works?
    No I asked you for evidence the protesters were paid by Washington to overthrow their government

    I think this is impossible until this secret service itself decides to tell us what happened and how that was.
    And I think you are peddling a load of conspiracy theory bunkum. The global political situation in the 50s is vastly different from that of today

    I agree this is the real threat and maybe this is the main reason why it all has happened. But I don't agree about Ukraine's "free will". As I've said above, free will of Ukrainians expressed at normal peaceful elections does not confirm your statement.
    After what Russia has done the 'free will' of the Ukrainian people will see any pro Russian party face political oblivion from now on

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    After what Russia has done the 'free will' of the Ukrainian people will see any pro Russian party face political oblivion from now on
    You cannot know that. Don't be so self-confident.

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    The Putin trolls keep growing on these threads. They must think that they are effective.

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Heads up. I'm Scottish but I speak Russian as do 99% of Ukrainians
    If that is correct and the Ukraine speaks Russian then that is just a bigger tie there is to Russia and thereby the Ukraine is the business of Russia and the USA is way far out of line and out of place.

    The USA might push around defeated Iraq and Afghanistan but for the USA to try being the Big-Daddy to Russia or to the Ukraine is completely insane.

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Putin is the gangster in chief of a gangster oligarchy so to equate that with any sort of moral equivalency to the west is laughable frankly
    It really is absurd to me that Americans would laugh or even dismiss the Russian President who happens to be one of the most powerful positions on the planet earth, and I do not see Russia or the Russian President as secondary or inferior to the USA because reality declares otherwise.

    And I say you are viewing "moral equivalency" is a very wrong way, as if you do not understand what "moral" means.

    The USA is by far the most immoral Country on the planet earth.

    The Russians are one of many peoples throughout humanity who keep the immorality of the West in check.

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post

    If it really wanted Ukraine so badly it could have gotten it for free 20 years ago so I really don't buy that argument
    I do not agree with what you are referring to 20 years ago getting the Ukraine for free - but my understanding is that after the USSR break up then Russia did not want to hold the Ukraine and Russia was accepting and empowering the Ukraine as a free Republic.

    The thing that went wrong is that the USA (and Western imperialist) interfered in the Ukraine by orchestrating hostilities against Russia and that is what started the after effects which are still going on today.

    If the USA had not created the hostilities and maintain the hostilities then the Ukraine would still be sound including their hold on the Crimea, because the entire problem was orchestrated by the hostilities of the USA.

    This really is a repeat of the USA orchestrated hostilities in Georgia which forced Russia to react there too, LINK.
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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by MrFirst View Post
    You cannot know that. Don't be so self-confident.
    Having visited Ukraine many times and listened to their views I'm VERY confident of that

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Having visited Ukraine many times and listened to their views I'm VERY confident of that
    Nevertheless you are mistaken. And time will prove it.

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by JP Cusick View Post
    If that is correct and the Ukraine speaks Russian then that is just a bigger tie there is to Russia and thereby the Ukraine is the business of Russia and the USA is way far out of line and out of place.
    No Ukraine is the business of Ukraine .... not Russia

    The USA might push around defeated Iraq and Afghanistan but for the USA to try being the Big-Daddy to Russia or to the Ukraine is completely insane.
    Given the Obama administrations reluctance to get involved in foreign entanglements. I suspect it really wants little to do with this issue

    It really is absurd to me that Americans would laugh or even dismiss the Russian President who happens to be one of the most powerful positions on the planet earth, and I do not see Russia or the Russian President as secondary or inferior to the USA because reality declares otherwise.
    I'm not American so why would I care what they think ?

    The USA is by far the most immoral Country on the planet earth.
    Oh I'm no fan of US foreign policy either but that hasn't blinded me from whats really going on here. Just assuming the US must be guilty of everything till proven innocent is not a credible debating position. I haven't let cynicism replace my objectivity and this whole business is Russias game

    The Russians are one of many peoples throughout humanity who keep the immorality of the West in check.
    I'm not much of a one for moral crusades I leave that to the religious nuts

    I do not agree with what you are referring to 20 years ago getting the Ukraine for free - but my understanding is that after the USSR break up then Russia did not want to hold the Ukraine and Russia was accepting and empowering the Ukraine as a free Republic.
    The Ukrainians overwhelmingly voted for independence. Russia lost them in 91 by democratic mandate

    The thing that went wrong is that the USA (and Western imperialist) interfered in the Ukraine by orchestrating hostilities against Russia and that is what started the after effects which are still going on today.
    But what if Ukrainians of their own free will actually want closer integration with the West. Have you ever considered that ?

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by MrFirst View Post
    Nevertheless you are mistaken. And time will prove it.
    Turkeys don't vote for Christmas

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