U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan' [W:479]

flogger · Feb 27, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

then the so-called Russian in the room of Vladimir Lukin - his term of office expired in March 2014.So MAYBE he was there even though there has been nothing that shows him to be there, but his position had expired which means that he was NOT representing the government of Russia.When no representative of the Russian government is present then it is a charade to claim that some Russian citizen was present.
As always it is just more deception and untruths.

He wasn't a so called Russian nor was he retired (and isn't even now) when he was Putins special envoy at these negotiations when they took place on 21st Feb 2014. Here is the agreement please note the witnesses and signatories on page 3

http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/cae/...licationFile/190027/140221-UKR_Erklaerung.pdf

And the statement by President Obama had NOTHING to do with your imaginary room as he said that the USA brokered the Ukrainian Presidential coup.

Obama was referring to these very negotiations ! In your alternate Sputnik universe what other negotiations do you think he meant ?

That imaginery room was very real and the agreement was made very public too. Here it is complete with negotiators none of whom were American :lol:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way...ugh-ukrainian-president-announces-concessions

Just how desperate are you !? :shock:

Montecresto · Feb 27, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

JP Cusick said:
I hope that you notice that I do not play it as their game is being played.

As such I happily accept my "E for Effort" as it was hard earned.

==========================================

Not Russia.

And excluding Russia made the deal as offensive.

===========================================

No, what I said was accurate and it is still true.

Washington Was Behind Ukraine Coup: Obama admits that US “Brokered a Deal” in Support of “Regime Change” | Global Research

As such all the hostility in the Ukraine which followed that was the after effects of the USA creation.

Of course not. It was a compliment for putting up with the nonsense that you're refuting quite well.

JP Cusick · Feb 27, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
He wasn't a so called Russian nor was he retired (and isn't even now) when he was Putins special envoy at these negotiations when they took place on 21st Feb 2014. Here is the agreement please note the witnesses and signatories on page 3

http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/cae/...licationFile/190027/140221-UKR_Erklaerung.pdf

So this means that you are the one who verifies the credentials of Russian officials - and it is another of your opinions pretending to be a fact when it is not a fact.

Since we do know that the Russian Federation does not give credence to that document then that means the Russian actions (the reality) speaks much louder and clearer then your claims.

The Russian government did not and still does not agree with your assessment - and rightfully NOT.

flogger said:
Obama was referring to these very negotiations ! In your alternate Sputnik universe what other negotiations do you think he meant ?

That imaginery room was very real and the agreement was made very public too. Here it is complete with negotiators none of whom were American :lol:

Breakthrough? Ukrainian President, Opposition Leaders Reach Deal : The Two-Way : NPR

Just how desperate are you !? :shock:

This is all AFTER (after) the fact of the elected President of the Ukraine being deposed by the USA backed coup.

You and American propaganda changes or ignores the true timeline as if the end justifies the beginning which it does not.

flogger · Feb 27, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

JP Cusick said:
So this means that you are the one who verifies the credentials of Russian officials - and it is another of your opinions pretending to be a fact when it is not a fact.
Since we do know that the Russian Federation does not give credence to that document then that means the Russian actions (the reality) speaks much louder and clearer then your claims.

But their envoy witnessed the signing of it along with those of France , Germany and Poland and is named in the actual agreement as having done so so how do you account for that ?

The Russian government did not and still does not agree with your assessment - and rightfully NOT.

I have no assessment I've merely presented you with the facts. Why are you having such difficulty accepting them ?

This is all AFTER (after) the fact of the elected President of the Ukraine being deposed by the USA backed coup.

No this agreement was signed before any coup. I know it must be difficult but try invoking common sense for a moment. How could Yanukovych be there in Kiev to sign it if it was afterwards ? That is him in the photographs :lol:

You and American propaganda changes or ignores the true timeline as if the end justifies the beginning which it does not.

Wow ! And what is the timeline in your alternate universe then ?

flogger · Feb 27, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Montecresto said:
Of course not. It was a compliment for putting up with the nonsense that you're refuting quite well.

Really ?

I'd love to know just how much more ridiculous he would have to get in order in order for you to decide he wasn't then !! :lamo

I'd have thought even you would have had the sense to distance yourself from this by now

JP Cusick · Feb 27, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
But their envoy witnessed the signing of it along with those of France , Germany and Poland and is named in the actual agreement as having done so so how do you account for that ?

That is called American propaganda or Western propaganda or just call it as a pack of lies, or in this thread we can call it as your kind of opinionated facts.

Since Russia does not agree with your claim, and we know that Russia does not agree based on their actions, then Russia is the rule maker and Russia has the opinion which rules over top of your claim.

Is it that you can not see that Russia does not agree with your pretentious argument? or do you not respect their opinion either?

flogger said:
How could Yanukovych be there in Kiev to sign it if it was afterwards ? That is him in the photographs :lol:

He was there by force.

And by force is a big part of what is meant by a coup.

It is like after committing rape and you say that the force is over and finished now - which is wrong because the end does not justify the unjust beginning.

Just because we can not see the American assault rifle pointed at the Man's back does not mean that there was no such threat.

flogger · Feb 27, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

JP Cusick said:
That is called American propaganda or Western propaganda or just call it as a pack of lies, or in this thread we can call it as your kind of opinionated facts.

Prove these events are fictitious or they didnt happen in the way that has been described or at the time stated

Since Russia does not agree with your claim, and we know that Russia does not agree based on their actions, then Russia is the rule maker and Russia has the opinion which rules over top of your claim.

I've claimed nothing. All I've done is present evidence

Is it that you can not see that Russia does not agree with your pretentious argument? or do you not respect their opinion either?

I've argued nothing . I've let the evidence speak for itself

He was there by force.And by force is a big part of what is meant by a coup.

How did they force him back from exile in Russia to sign it after the coup then ? I'm just dying to see your evidence for that one ! :lol:

It is like after committing rape and you say that the force is over and finished now - which is wrong because the end does not justify the unjust beginning.

No its like Yanukovych signed the agreement before the coup happened. It was clearly witnessed by the Russians and you are unprepared to accept that

Just because we can not see the American assault rifle pointed at the Man's back does not mean that there was no such threat.

In this case it simply means there is no American assault rifle

JP Cusick · Feb 27, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
Prove these events are fictitious or they didnt happen in the way that has been described or at the time stated

I really did prove it in explicit detail - in that Russia by its actions declares it to be unreal.

We all either get to believe Russia based on the real Russian actions, or else we can believe your claims? Duh.

And President Obama by his own words declares that the USA acted illegally by undermining the elected Ukrainian President.

Of course instead of believing Russia and believing Obama we could just believe you as the giver of facts? Double duh on that.

flogger · Feb 27, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

JP Cusick said:
I really did prove it in explicit detail - in that Russia by its actions declares it to be unreal.

When did Russia state that these events have never happened or that her envoy did not witness them ?

We all either get to believe Russia based on the real Russian actions, or else we can believe your claims? Duh.

I've made no claims. I've presented evidence

And President Obama by his own words declares that the USA acted illegally by undermining the elected Ukrainian President.

Please cite Obama declaring the US acted illegally in any of its dealings with Ukraine ?

Of course instead of believing Russia and believing Obama we could just believe you as the giver of facts? Double duh on that.

If that is indeed so you'll be able to refute them with a bit more than your own hideously skewed opinion and Russian propaganda then

Montecresto · Feb 27, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

JP Cusick said:
I really did prove it in explicit detail - in that Russia by its actions declares it to be unreal.

We all either get to believe Russia based on the real Russian actions, or else we can believe your claims? Duh.

And President Obama by his own words declares that the USA acted illegally by undermining the elected Ukrainian President.

Of course instead of believing Russia and believing Obama we could just believe you as the giver of facts? Double duh on that.

Doing good dude, keep kickin that ass.

flogger · Feb 28, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Montecresto said:
Doing good dude, keep kickin that ass.

If you want to shackle yourself to this laughing stock then go right ahead ...... 'dude' ! :lamo

Rogue Valley · Feb 28, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

JP Cusick said:
But aside from that - just because there was some Russian person in the room does NOT mean that there was any representative of the Russian government included.

I have fixed the link and it works now. I'll repeat the exercise. Once again, from YOUR favorite Russian source...

21 February 2014

Negotiations between Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych, opposition leaders, European Union and Russian representatives have been completed, it said.

Voice of Russia

Bolded for YOUR benefit just in case you have selective vision impairment when facts don't support your conspiracy theory.

flogger · Feb 28, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Simpleχity;1064367279 said:
I have fixed the link and it works now. I'll repeat the exercise. Once again, from YOUR favorite Russian source...

Bolded for YOUR benefit just in case you have selective vision impairment when facts don't support your conspiracy theory.

I've already linked him the PDF file of the actual agreement complete with the names and nationalities of the participants.

He immediately dismissed it all as Western propaganda despite probably hundreds of media witnesses to the event at the time. Whatcha gotta do ? :roll:

Rogue Valley · Feb 28, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

JP Cusick said:
According to Wiki then the so-called Russian in the room of Vladimir Lukin - his term of office expired in March 2014.

Terrible strawman. Lukin was there on 21 February 2014.

JP Cusick said:
So MAYBE he was there even though there has been nothing that shows him to be there, but his position had expired which means that he was NOT representing the government of Russia.

See above. February precedes March, even in Russia.

JP Cusick said:
When no representative of the Russian government is present then it is a charade to claim that some Russian citizen was present.

The Russian representative Lukin WAS present. Russian media (both RT and Sputnik) confirms this.

JP Cusick said:
As always it is just more deception and untruths.

As always, you just cannot accept facts that invalidate your conspiracy theory

JP Cusick said:
And the statement by President Obama had NOTHING to do with your imaginary room as he said that the USA brokered the Ukrainian Presidential coup.

Obama was correct. WE (a collective i.e. Yanukovych/Opposition/Germany/France/Poland/Russia) did indeed negotiate an agreement in Kyiv on 21 February 2014.

JP Cusick said:
Oh yes - that is the part that you keep trying to snake away from.

Much like Putin's economy, your "credibility" is rimming around the toilet bowl.

Rogue Valley · Feb 28, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
I've already linked him the PDF file of the actual agreement complete with the names and nationalities of the participants.

He immediately dismissed it all as Western propaganda despite probably hundreds of media witnesses to the event at the time. Whatcha gotta do ? :roll:

That's just it. Any fact that does not coincide with his CT spiel simply becomes "Western propaganda". But he can't seem to explain why RT and Sputnik also report the same fact.

Quag · Feb 28, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Simpleχity;1064367294 said:
Terrible strawman. Lukin was there on 21 February 2014.

See above. February precedes March, even in Russia.
The Russian representative Lukin WAS present. Russian media (both RT and Sputnik) confirms this.

As always, you just cannot accept facts that invalidate your conspiracy theory

Obama was correct. WE (a collective i.e. Yanukovych/Opposition/Germany/France/Poland/Russia) did indeed negotiate an agreement in Kyiv on 21 February 2014.

Much like Putin's economy, your "credibility" is rimming around the toilet bowl.

Bolded is just too funny

Quag · Feb 28, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Simpleχity;1064367304 said:
That's just it. Any fact that does not coincide with his CT spiel simply becomes "Western propaganda". But he can't seem to explain why RT and Sputnik also report the same fact.

They were infiltrated by the CIA who planted the story and the Kremlin just hasn't noticed yet. DUH!

Montecresto · Feb 28, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
If you want to shackle yourself to this laughing stock then go right ahead ...... 'dude' ! :lamo

It's just that I'm frying bigger fish elsewhere and haven't time for amateur repetition, and JP is holding you guys down nicely over here, laugh out loud. And, if he wasn't frustrating your patronizing position, you'd have dismissed him long ago, just as I've done you! See?

flogger · Feb 28, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Montecresto said:
It's just that I'm frying bigger fish elsewhere and haven't time for amateur repetition, and JP is holding you guys down nicely over here, laugh out loud. And, if he wasn't frustrating your patronizing position, you'd have dismissed him long ago, just as I've done you! See?

Nahh its just that you've had your ass handed to you more than he has and know better

Myself and others are just having fun watching him tying himself in knots with his own blind and bigoted stupidity.

My continued participation is for pure entertainment value because I can't wait to see what he comes up with next :lol:

Montecresto · Feb 28, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
Nahh its just that you've had your ass handed to you more than he has and know better

Myself and others are just having fun watching him tying himself in knots with his own blind and bigoted stupidity.

My continued participation is for pure entertainment value because I can't wait to see what he comes up with next :lol:

Well it certainly has no academic value, so I can see your interest in entertaining yourself. Meanwhile, as you play entertaining games, Russia reinforces its legitimacy in Ukraine. Have fun playing flog. Laughing out loud, you prolly think Putin's had his ass handed to him, too!

flogger · Feb 28, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Montecresto said:
Well it certainly has no academic value, so I can see your interest in entertaining yourself. Meanwhile, as you play entertaining games, Russia reinforces its legitimacy in Ukraine. Have fun playing flog. Laughing out loud, you prolly think Putin's had his ass handed to him, too!

Your admiration for this despot is legendary, I doubt theres anything 'trusted leader' could do that would ever earn your censure ......... short of allying himself with the US of course :lol:

JP Cusick · Feb 28, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
When did Russia state that these events have never happened or that her envoy did not witness them ?

I've made no claims. I've presented evidence

Please cite Obama declaring the US acted illegally in any of its dealings with Ukraine ?

If that is indeed so you'll be able to refute them with a bit more than your own hideously skewed opinion and Russian propaganda then

In response - FYI - I declare that everything that I said and what I posted were all accurate and true, and mine are still all accurate and true.

I gave the reference links along with the facts and more, so there is need to repeat the same things again in this case.
===============

A bigger point and more relevant is that the USA "brokered the deal" for the Ukraine and that is a fact whether any Russian was present or not, and the USA has no business brokering anything as the Ukraine was and remains as none of our business.

We NEVER EVER see any "brokering" by China or by India, or by Brazil or Canada, because the Ukraine is none of their business and it is none of the USA either.

Consider the reality of NATO that we the USA are going to risk world war 3 including the "New World" to be turned into nuclear waste based on some eastern Europe hostilities which has been happening since the beginning of human history - and that is our idiotic NATO position.

We have been given a huge blessing of the "New World" and yet we are going to throw it all away based on our violent warmongering on the other side of the planet where we have no right.

The USA is pretending to be some world-police based on our militarism and our warmongering and this is a foolish way to our own doom.

We are fortunate and blessed that Russia has such tolerant and honorable leaders who do not rightfully retaliate against the American bullying as we surely are asking for it.

flogger · Feb 28, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

JP Cusick said:
In response - FYI - I declare that everything that I said and what I posted were all accurate and true, and mine are still all accurate and true.

Indeed. Why let the nasty facts intrude upon that fantasy

I gave the reference links along with the facts and more, so there is need to repeat the same things again in this case.

Indeed there isn't. We know exactly what you want to believe

A bigger point and more relevant is that the USA "brokered the deal" for the Ukraine and that is a fact whether any Russian was present or not, and the USA has no business brokering anything as the Ukraine was and remains as none of our business.

The US wasn't there when the deal was brokered so obviously you can now put your mind at rest

We NEVER EVER see any "brokering" by China or by India, or by Brazil or Canada, because the Ukraine is none of their business and it is none of the USA either.

I guess that explains why only Europeans were at the negotiations then

Consider the reality of NATO that we the USA are going to risk world war 3 including the "New World" to be turned into nuclear waste based on some eastern Europe hostilities which has been happening since the beginning of human history - and that is our idiotic NATO position.

Nobody is forcing the US to be a member. It is one by its own free choice. NATO was founded in 1949 by twelve sovereign nations: Belgium, Canada, Denmark, France, Iceland, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, the United Kingdom and the United States. It has since grown to 28 Allies.

All decisions in NATO are taken by consensus, which means that a decision can only be taken if every single Ally accepts it.

Equally, the decision for any country to take part in NATO-led operations falls to that country alone, according to its own legal procedures. No member of the Alliance can decide on the deployment of any other Ally's forces not even the US

We have been given a huge blessing of the "New World" and yet we are going to throw it all away based on our violent warmongering on the other side of the planet where we have no right.
The USA is pretending to be some world-police based on our militarism and our warmongering and this is a foolish way to our own doom.

How can you warmonger by massively reducing your presence in a theater ? The US had 213,000 people in Europe in 1990 it presently has a mere 28,000. Conversely Russia has 850,000 personnel in theater and has increased that figure year on year since 2000 so who is the warmonger ?

We are fortunate and blessed that Russia has such tolerant and honorable leaders who do not rightfully retaliate against the American bullying as we surely are asking for it.

Fortunate and blessed .... tolerant and honourable. You couldn't make this stuff up :lamo

JP Cusick · Feb 28, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
... blah blah blah ... ... blah blah blah ... ... blah blah blah ...

I stand by everything that I said as accurate and true.

And the truth is what really matters.

flogger · Feb 28, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

JP Cusick said:
I stand by everything that I said as accurate and true.

And the truth is what really matters.

Best you just stick by your 'tolerant and honourable' despots then. I gotta admit you are great entertainment :lol:

U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan' [W:479]

flogger

Montecresto

JP Cusick

The Expert

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JP Cusick

The Expert

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JP Cusick

The Expert

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Montecresto

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Rogue Valley

Lead or get out of the way

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Lead or get out of the way

Rogue Valley

Lead or get out of the way

Quag

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Montecresto

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Montecresto

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JP Cusick

The Expert

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JP Cusick

The Expert

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