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Thread: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan' [W:479]

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Actually, there's no excuse for ignorance, information flows to easily anymore for people to be oblivious to what's happening. On the issue of Ukraine, Putin is right and you will see the same reaction to any attempted expansion of NATO influence eastward. The rub is that patronising of the West as you are, it escapes you that it's not in Russia's interest to allow it, nor will they. So get over it and pay attention to more important things.
    And what about what Ukraine wants ? Or doesn't that count ?

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    And what about what Ukraine wants ? Or doesn't that count ?
    Ukraine is composed of 40 odd million people, a chunk of which in the Far East are demonstrating what they want, and it isn't what your pushing.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Ukraine is composed of 40 odd million people, a chunk of which in the Far East are demonstrating what they want, and it isn't what your pushing.
    Ukraine actually has 45 million of which only 9% of the population of Ukraine live in the contested areas and of those only 38% are ethnic Russian. If you do the math that comes to just over 1.5 million, so (even supposing they all supported Russia) ,not a very large chunk then

    Are you suggesting the other 43.5 million give up their sovereignty and right to self determination in order to conform to the wishes of this minority ? Perhaps it would be simpler if this minority just went to live in Russia instead ?

    Just for additional info only 17% of the population of Ukraine as a whole are ethnic Russian

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Ukraine actually has 45 million of which only 9% of the population of Ukraine live in the contested areas and of those only 38% are ethnic Russian. If you do the math that comes to just over 1.5 million, so (even supposing they all supported Russia) ,not a very large chunk then

    Are you suggesting the other 43.5 million give up their sovereignty and right to self determination in order to conform to the wishes of this minority ? Perhaps it would be simpler if this minority just went to live in Russia instead ?

    Just for additional info only 17% of the population of Ukraine as a whole are ethnic Russian
    Why would I ever suggest that idiotic idea. The separatists are looking for autonomy in the East where they reside, not looking to control the entire nation.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Why would I ever suggest that idiotic idea. The separatists are looking for autonomy in the East where they reside, not looking to control the entire nation.
    The problem the 'separatists' have is that they are the minority ethnic group in the region. Only by driving out the Ukrainian majority in Donetsk and Luhansk and turning them into refugees within their own country (with Russias help of course) can this 'autonomy' ever be achieved.

    The tactics being used by Russia in the region lend validation to that agenda

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    The problem the 'separatists' have is that they are the minority ethnic group in the region. Only by driving out the Ukrainian majority in Donetsk and Luhansk and turning them into refugees within their own country (with Russias help of course) can this 'autonomy' ever be achieved.

    The tactics being used by Russia in the region lend validation to that agenda
    Self determination doesn't always deliver what you like.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Having visited places in Eastern Ukraine too I'm certain that the only way Putin can achieve his aim is to divide and conquer. He cannot win any referendum in the disputed areas because unlike with Crimea the math of ethnic demographic works against him. The best he can hope for is to keep Ukraine politically and militarily destabilised, keeping it out of the EU and NATO as long as he can. It may also be that he wants to force as many ethnic Ukrainians out of the region as possible thereby permanently changing the numerical balance of what was once an unfavourable demographic. Obviously this gameplan will require much time in order to be realised
    Did you look at the 2010 Election map of Ukraine. You can view it here.

    Luhansk, Donetsk, Zaporizhia, Kherson, Crimea, Odessa,Kharkiv and MyKolaiv all voted 50% or greater for the "pro-Russian" vs the "Pro-West" candidate. These are also areas in which 30% plus of the population states Russian as their native language. Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk it's well over 70%. Then on top of that here is a map of support for Russian being a recognized official "federal" language.

    So your theory is bunk just on these facts alone. These areas were already heavily Russian in terms of language, culture and identity.
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    What exactly has the US annexed in the past 100 years?
    Panama Canal? Colombia wanted a fair deal and US wanted to bleed them dry. So US "encouraged", funded and protected the Panamanian Revoluton. US Navy ran blockade against Colombia preventing speedy dispatching troops and supplies. US held on to that land for a good while don't you think?

    And then there is a bunch of Pacific Islands the US annexed as well. You know Second Samoan Civil War in which the US and UK fought Germany over the Samoan Islands. Then you have this gem, Guano Islands Act which allowed a US citizen the right to annex islands in the Pacific which had bat **** deposits. Over 100 islands were claimed such as Bajo Nuevo Banks, Navassa Island, and Midway Atoll (Island).

    Yep.. US never annexed anything.
    Last edited by austrianecon; 02-11-15 at 04:06 AM.
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by face, your View Post
    Putin is an internationally recognized war criminal so you have an interesting concept of "done nothing wrong".
    Obama is a war criminal too if Putin is one. So is half of Nato.
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Heads up. There was a united Ukraine for 23 years until you guys decided that there shouldn't be anymore
    Ukraine wasn't united. There has always been (in this case 23 years) of differences between Western and Eastern Ukraine.
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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