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Thread: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan' [W:479]

  1. #21
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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by MrFirst View Post
    I believe the referendum held in Crimea is much more representative than your "great bulk".
    Only Crimea oblast has a majority ethnic Russian demographic and only 2% of Ukraines population so no its not representative of anything but Crimea

    The history of elections in Ukraine - both presidential and for parliament - show your words are lie.
    Pro-western parties could win elections in Ukraine only after revolutions and coups.
    There seemed to be no problem for them before Yanukovych except when Russia tried to poison them of course. Perhaps his locking up of the opposition leaders after he got elected might not have been a good idea with hindsight

    But in 2010 Viktor Yanukovich, the "evil pro-Russian candidate" wins again.

    In 2014 pro-western powers win again. And again after violence and revolution. Now through blood and deaths. Turchinov was declared the president by parliament that was again violation of law. In extraordinary elections, after Yanukovich was expelled, all pro-Russian parties were supressed and many simply refused to take part in election due to safety reasons, Poroshenko has won. By the way, that was the lowest voters' turnout for all presidential elections in Ukraine.
    I think his plundering of state coffers, jailing of opposition and his incomprehensible U turn on EU membership before cuddling up to Russia had rather more to do with his downfall than US conspiracy theories. If the West wanted Ukraine they could have had on a plate 20 years ago when Russia was bankrupt ,militarily prostrate and led by a drunk.

  2. #22
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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    The Eastern side has long history as Russian territory along with the people speaking Russian and belonging to the Orthodox Church and traditions which make the Eastern Ukraine and the Crimea as being a part of Russia.
    The Donetsk and Luhansk areas involved in the conflict are only 38% ethnic Russian. What about the wants and desires of the majority Ukrainians who live there and doubtless want nothing to do with being Russian again BTW virtually all Ukrainians can speak Russian fluently and overall only 17.3% of them nationally are ethnic Russians

    I realize that the USA has been pressuring and bribing the former Soviet Republics into joining the Western alliance and NATO which meant that the USA was instigating the hostilities with Russia and now that hostility has blossomed.
    If it really wanted Ukraine so badly it could have gotten it for free 20 years ago so I really don't buy that argument

    Honestly I believe that if our USA's petty efforts were to succeed then Russia would launch a first strike against us - and rightly so.

    Fortunately for me is that I feel much safer by knowing our fate rest in the competent hands of their President Putin instead of the worries I have from our own American war mongers getting us all killed.
    In the safe hands of an ex KGB heavy? One of the most sinister devious organisations of the last century ..... right

    I'd be extremely wary of his highly organised disinformation campaign too

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulrode...ainian-crimes/
    Last edited by flogger; 01-26-15 at 06:11 AM.

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    There seemed to be no problem for them before Yanukovych except when Russia tried to poison them of course. Perhaps his locking up of the opposition leaders after he got elected might not have been a good idea with hindsight

    I think his plundering of state coffers, jailing of opposition and his incomprehensible U turn on EU membership before cuddling up to Russia had rather more to do with his downfall than US conspiracy theories. If the West wanted Ukraine they could have had on a plate 20 years ago when Russia was bankrupt ,militarily prostrate and led by a drunk.
    It's not conspiracy theories, it's well known facts, such as phone conversation between Pyatt and Nuland, for instance, that shows the USA are completely inside Ukraine's politics. 20 years ago, as Ive said above, Ukraine was ruled by Leonid Kuchma who considered as pro-Russian even though he's never been so. Anyway he was much more independent, this is first. The second, all these so-called "non-governmental organizations" which are funded by US government proxies under cover of CIA - democracy foundations and so on - at that time weren't so spreaded all over Ukraine. Though Russia was bankrupt and led by drunk the USA had much less leverages in the new countries of former USSR. Simply because not enough time passed since Moscow with all its KGB and other special services lost control over Ukraine and over other former Soviet republics. If we talk about Ukraine then this country was ruled by so-called "red directors" - the heads of big industrial plants, Soviet industrial managers (exactly this part of social elite made Kuchma the president). The Ukrainian part of Soviet legacy included 700.000 army, the airforce that was fourth in the world by quantity - after USA, Russia and China, and also nuclear weapons. So, I don't think the USA had a big wish to get involved wich such country. making social experiments like revolutions in a country with nuclear bombs may worth too much. Now it's different. No nukes, no army, no KGB, no red directors, no state actually. I suppose your judgement about "20 years ago" is superficial and not enough thought out.

    As for the Ukraine's opposition leaders, they are the same as the "evil" Yanukovich. They all descended from Ukrainian government of 1990s - Timoshenko and Yuschenko (the same as Yanukovich) were ministers in the governments of Kuchma, Yuschenko was head of central bank, Timoshenko (who was the only jailed "oppositioner") was the head of state energy corporation. She made a big fortune, by the way, and they all are not angels to put it mildly. It's not black and white, western democracy against evil tyranny, it's much more complicated.

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    The Sly Master of Mordor strikes again:

    ST. PETERSBURG, January 26 /TASS/. Russian President Vladimir Putin said on Monday that Moscow might extend the period of sojourn in Russian territory for Ukrainians of conscription age who can be drafted into the Ukrainian army.

    “Many people, by the way, do not want to be mobilized. They are trying to move into Russia and lie low for some time. And they are absolutely right because they are simply being sent under bullets like cannon fodder,” Putin said.

    “Under a new law, Ukrainian citizens cannot stay in Russia for more than 30 days. After that they have to return to Ukraine where they are being caught and sent under the bullets again. That is why I think that we are going to change something in that law”.

    TASS: Russia - Russia may help Ukrainians of conscription age avoid army service

  5. #25
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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by MrFirst View Post
    It's not conspiracy theories, it's well known facts, such as phone conversation between Pyatt and Nuland, for instance
    By all means provide evidence that the only reason the protesters faced down Yanukovych's guns was because Washington stuffed their pockets with dollars when I suspect guns might have helped them more

    , that shows the USA are completely inside Ukraine's politics. 20 years ago, as Ive said above, Ukraine was ruled by Leonid Kuchma who considered as pro-Russian even though he's never been so. Anyway he was much more independent, this is first. The second, all these so-called "non-governmental organizations" which are funded by US government proxies under cover of CIA - democracy foundations and so on - at that time weren't so spreaded all over Ukraine. Though Russia was bankrupt and led by drunk the USA had much less leverages in the new countries of former USSR. Simply because not enough time passed since Moscow with all its KGB and other special services lost control over Ukraine and over other former Soviet republics. If we talk about Ukraine then this country was ruled by so-called "red directors" - the heads of big industrial plants, Soviet industrial managers (exactly this part of social elite made Kuchma the president). The Ukrainian part of Soviet legacy included 700.000 army, the airforce that was fourth in the world by quantity - after USA, Russia and China, and also nuclear weapons. So, I don't think the USA had a big wish to get involved wich such country. making social experiments like revolutions in a country with nuclear bombs may worth too much. Now it's different. No nukes, no army, no KGB, no red directors, no state actually. I suppose your judgement about "20 years ago" is superficial and not enough thought out.
    What it boils down to in the end is that Russia doesn't want a US ABM site potentially stationed in Ukraine where it could wipe out Russias ICBMs when they are in their slow boost phase with their MIRVs and decoys undeployed. Given most of the Russian ICBMs are stationed west of the Urals this is a very real threat. Thats why this whole thing had to happen now before Ukraine joined the EU of its own free will and started down the path of closer integration with the West. Ukraines right to self determination obviously comes a long way second to Russias security interests in the Kremlin. Hence we are where we are today
    Last edited by flogger; 01-26-15 at 11:22 AM.

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    No Russia tried to stop Ukraine joining the EU and then potentially NATO. In polls before this happened well over 80% of Ukrainians were in favour of EU membership, this situation was intolerable for Putin who told his corrupt 'poodle' Yanukovych to do a complete U turn against the wishes of his people. The rest as they say is history
    Sure, but what the US should have done is taught them how to have an electoral system. This is what, like the third "revolution" in 15 years? They want democracy, but not if it means having a functioning system, so they sieze power a la Bolshevism. Put back together exactly as it was would mean the same thing in another 5-10 years.

    In some ways, Putin removing the Russian influenced areas is a present to the rest of Ukraine. They would never have to worry about Yanukovich again.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    By all means provide evidence that the only reason the protesters faced down Yanukovych's guns was because Washington stuffed their pockets with dollars when I suspect guns might have helped them more



    What it boils down to in the end is that Russia doesn't want a US ABM site potentially stationed in Ukraine where it could wipe out Russias ICBMs when they are in their slow boost phase with their MIRVs and decoys undeployed. Given most of the Russian ICBMs are stationed west of the Urals this is a very real threat. Thats why this whole thing had to happen now before Ukraine joined the EU of its own free will and started down the path of closer integration with the West. Ukraines right to self determination obviously comes a long way second to Russias security interests in the Kremlin. Hence we are where we are today
    You're right, they don't want that anymore than Kennedy wanted Soviet missiles in Cuba. They've already lost Poland and the Baltics.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    In some ways, Putin removing the Russian influenced areas is a present to the rest of Ukraine. They would never have to worry about Yanukovich again.
    What makes you think Ukrainians worry about Yanukovich? Yanukovish is the smallest problem that Ukraine faces now.

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by MrFirst View Post
    What makes you think Ukrainians worry about Yanukovich? Yanukovish is the smallest problem that Ukraine faces now.
    Himself, yes. But the idea of another election in which someone from his party and social milieu could win isn't really very helpful to Ukraine. The only way to stop that would be to remove civil rights from whole areas of the Ukrainian populace who favor that, or to seperate them from the rest of Ukraine.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

  10. #30
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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by MrFirst View Post
    What makes you think Ukrainians worry about Yanukovich? Yanukovish is the smallest problem that Ukraine faces now.
    After what Russia has done it would now take a miracle for any pro Russian government to ever get elected again in Ukraine. Putin knows this too and that is why he must keep this war going. The last thing he wants is a situation where theres any kind of political stability and the Ukrainians are free to vote on their own destiny. They will obviously be pretty desperate to join NATO now after what has happened to them

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