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Thread: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan' [W:479]

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by MrFirst View Post
    It's not Russian backed separatists. It's soldier of Ukrainian army. Terrorist. Murderer of children and women. Hiding behind the Red Cross.
    Bolded IS Putin backed separatist.
    Ie Scum of the earth
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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Spoken like a true dictator. God help any country in the world that is smaller than its neighbour if they were all to subscribe to your morally bankrupt worldview
    Yes - and again - welcome to the real world.

    And I am only viewing the world as it really is - because I did not make it this way, and if I were the Dictator then I would make some big improvements to the world.

    This world is a sinful world because it is morally bankrupt - but I am not one of those who made it this way.


    =======================================


    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    Wrong again. Below is the Decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Council of the USSR transferring Crimea to Ukraine in 1954. The world has recognized Crimea as Ukrainian land for 60 years now. Russia has been paying Ukraine $98 million dollars a year since 2009 to lease the naval facilities at Sevastopol for the Black Sea Fleet. You don't pay rent to someone else if you already own the property. In 2010 the Russian leasehold was renegotiated with an extension until 2042 and an option for an additional five years until 2047.
    The Ukraine use to be a "United Republic" of the USSR in 1954 so it was not independent of the USSR.

    The Crimea belonged to Russia (another "United Republic" of the USSR) so it was only a transfer of the governing authority under the USSR and NOT a surrender of territory from Russia to an independent Ukraine.

    And as someone else said - Russia accepted the Crimea under Ukrainian control until the USA came in and stirred up trouble which made the Crimea join up with Russia.

    There are easy to see steps where all was going well then the USA came in and the Ukraine got the shaft from all sides.
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  3. #123
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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by JP Cusick View Post
    Yes - and again - welcome to the real world.
    Tell that to the Israelis and Kuwaitis

    And I am only viewing the world as it really is - because I did not make it this way, and if I were the Dictator then I would make some big improvements to the world.
    When it boils down to it you basically are advocating the law of the jungle where might means right and surrender the only option for the weak. It reminds me of another guy who once said. 'The soil of Europe exists for those who have the strength to take it'. Do you know who that was ?

    This world is a sinful world because it is morally bankrupt - but I am not one of those who made it this way.
    Sinful eh ? I'm not a religious nut and the world is what it is

    The Ukraine use to be a "United Republic" of the USSR in 1954 so it was not independent of the USSR.
    Indeed . That didn't happen till 1991 with the integrity of its borders ratified by treaty by Russia and others in 1994. Russia is now in direct violation of it

    The Crimea belonged to Russia (another "United Republic" of the USSR) so it was only a transfer of the governing authority under the USSR and NOT a surrender of territory from Russia to an independent Ukraine.
    After 1991 that ceased to be the case

    And as someone else said - Russia accepted the Crimea under Ukrainian control until the USA came in and stirred up trouble which made the Crimea join up with Russia.
    Please provide any evidence whatsoever that the US ever had any interest in Crimea or gave Russia any excuse to annex it ?

    There are easy to see steps where all was going well then the USA came in and the Ukraine got the shaft from all sides.
    No just from the Russians as evidenced by the ever rising body count caused by their 'tourists'. Putin was never going to let them join the EU which was what triggered this conflict. The rest is history
    Last edited by flogger; 01-29-15 at 05:18 PM.

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by JP Cusick View Post
    Ukraine use to be a "United Republic" of the USSR in 1954 so it was not independent of the USSR.
    Ukraine was a SSR - Soviet Socialist Republic. Below is Article 3 of the Agreement Establishing the Commonwealth of Independent States (Belavezha Accords). Signed in Minsk on 8 December 1991 by Belarus, Ukraine, and the Russian Federation. On 21 December 1991, 11 former members of the USSR signed the Alma Ata Protocol which reaffirmed the principles of the Belavezha Accords. The Russian Federation also signed the Budapest Memorandum with Ukraine on 5 December 1994.

    In order to achieve the purposes of the Commonwealth the member states, based on generally recognized norms of international law and the Helsinki Final Act, shall build their relations in accordance with the following interconnected and equal principles: respect of the sovereignty of the member states, the inalienable rights of peoples to self-determination and the right to determine their fate without outside interference; the inviolability of state borders, the recognition of existing borders and the rejection of unlawful territorial annexations.
    Quote Originally Posted by JP Cusick View Post
    The Crimea belonged to Russia (another "United Republic" of the USSR) so it was only a transfer of the governing authority under the USSR and NOT a surrender of territory from Russia to an independent Ukraine.
    See above. The Russian Federation recognized the territory and existing borders of the new independent states via numerous signed protocols and accords. In return, the Russian Federation was granted the right to assume the permanent seat on the UN Security Council previously held by the now defunct USSR.


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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    And why would they? I feel bad for the people of Ukraine who are just pawns in a power play.
    The moral explanation is that they don't command the respect to keep creeping Western influence out of a sovereign, non-Russian country except by force. There were a hundred of things Russia could have done in the last 25 years to nourish a partnership with Ukraine that wasn't grounded on the threat of force.
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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    When it boils down to it you basically are advocating the law of the jungle where might means right and surrender the only option for the weak.
    This really is just a discussion about Russia and the Ukraine, so you trying to make this case as some worldwide principles is just childish.

    In this case the one (1) who made the mistake that they were strong enough to take the Ukraine was the USA, and the USA got rebuffed by the Republic of Russia - and rightly so.

    I honestly view Russia as handling the problem so professionally and brilliantly that it makes it look like the USA was suckered into our idiotic interference with the Ukraine.


    ============================================


    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    Ukraine was a SSR - Soviet Socialist Republic. Below is Article 3 of the Agreement Establishing the Commonwealth of Independent States (Belavezha Accords). Signed in Minsk on 8 December 1991 by Belarus, Ukraine, and the Russian Federation. On 21 December 1991, 11 former members of the USSR signed the Alma Ata Protocol which reaffirmed the principles of the Belavezha Accords. The Russian Federation also signed the Budapest Memorandum with Ukraine on 5 December 1994.

    See above. The Russian Federation recognized the territory and existing borders of the new independent states via numerous signed protocols and accords. In return, the Russian Federation was granted the right to assume the permanent seat on the UN Security Council previously held by the now defunct USSR.
    Russia did live up to that as the Ukraine became an independent sovereign State.

    The problems began when the USA snuck in and tried to turn the Ukraine against Russia and now the USA has created a mess and Russia dominates.

    It is silly to hide behind an agreement in 1994 to support the betrayals of 2014-15 as Russia is not living in the past while the USA is cheating in the present.

    The USA made the same stupid mistake in the Republic of Georgia so the USA does not learn from our blunders or our stupidity.
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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by JP Cusick View Post
    This really is just a discussion about Russia and the Ukraine, so you trying to make this case as some worldwide principles is just childish.
    Why is Russia and Ukraine different ? If Ukraine had been a NATO member like the Baltics or Poland would this be happening to her now ?

    In this case the one (1) who made the mistake that they were strong enough to take the Ukraine was the USA, and the USA got rebuffed by the Republic of Russia - and rightly so.
    I don't buy that xenophobic argument at all. If the USA was really that desperate to acquire Ukraine it could have done so any time it liked 20 years ago when all if faced was a bankrupt and militarily prostrate Russia led by a drunk.

    I honestly view Russia as handling the problem so professionally and brilliantly that it makes it look like the USA was suckered into our idiotic interference with the Ukraine.
    Yes Nazi Germany handled Poland and France 'professionally and brilliantly' too in 1939/40. That didn't make what it was doing right. You basically seem to want to distort any international crisis into a club with which to beat up on the US right or wrong . It isn't US troops with boots on the ground in Ukraine and you are fawning over arguably the most dangerous demagogue to have emerged since WW2

    The problems began when the USA snuck in and tried to turn the Ukraine against Russia and now the USA has created a mess and Russia dominates.
    Please present your evidence that the USA paid the protesters in Kiev to overthrow their corrupt regime ?

    It is silly to hide behind an agreement in 1994 to support the betrayals of 2014-15 as Russia is not living in the past while the USA is cheating in the present.
    Yeah. I mean what good are agreements when they aren't worth the paper they were written on. Just roll the tanks in when it suits anyway right ? Just out of morbid curiosity how is it that the US have 'cheated' anybody here ?

    Good grief !
    Last edited by flogger; 01-30-15 at 01:50 PM.

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by JP Cusick View Post
    This really is just a discussion about Russia and the Ukraine, so you trying to make this case as some worldwide principles is just childish.

    In this case the one (1) who made the mistake that they were strong enough to take the Ukraine was the USA, and the USA got rebuffed by the Republic of Russia - and rightly so.

    I honestly view Russia as handling the problem so professionally and brilliantly that it makes it look like the USA was suckered into our idiotic interference with the Ukraine.


    ============================================



    Russia did live up to that as the Ukraine became an independent sovereign State.

    The problems began when the USA snuck in and tried to turn the Ukraine against Russia and now the USA has created a mess and Russia dominates.

    It is silly to hide behind an agreement in 1994 to support the betrayals of 2014-15 as Russia is not living in the past while the USA is cheating in the present.

    The USA made the same stupid mistake in the Republic of Georgia so the USA does not learn from our blunders or our stupidity.
    The USA never tried to invade or take over Ukraine.
    Putin did that all on his own.
    He is 100% responsible for the mess in Ukraine now.
    But his days are numbered. The Russian economy sucks and he wont be able to hold onto power for too much longer unless something really good happens.
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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    .
    But his days are numbered. The Russian economy sucks and he wont be able to hold onto power for too much longer unless something really good happens.
    Don't underestimate the power of a 'controlled' media. It certainly helped the likes of Saddam Hussein hold on to power after the first Gulf War and the Iraqi economy was in a far worse state than Russia's is today

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Don't underestimate the power of a 'controlled' media. It certainly helped the likes of Saddam Hussein hold on to power after the first Gulf War and the Iraqi economy was in a far worse state than Russia's is today
    Controlled media only goes so far.
    Putin is scared because he knows there is no way he can leave power and stay alive.
    He will start to get even more repressive with the Russian people soon enough. That is the begging of the end for him.
    My only big fear is that he may try and start WWIII in a last ditch attempt to hold onto power just a little bit longer.
    A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
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    A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.
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