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Thread: Dutch court blocks extradition to U.S. over torture concerns.....

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    Re: Dutch court blocks extradition to U.S. over torture concerns.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    So the average American is similar to a terrorist?

    How did you phrase that question to your friends? And how many of them were Christian?
    Out of a sample of about 8, most or all of them are Christian, practicing to one degree or another, all replied that they thought the torture was OK, that Cheney was right.

    The question was simply "what do you think about the Senate report showing we tortured?" And it was not simply a poll, it was a discussion with statements and questions back and forth.

    "Terrorist" here is defined neither by me or by you. No, I don't think that the average American is 'similar' to a terrorist, whatever exactly that means.

    But, within my group, the average American is a moral midget, unable to tell the difference between right and wrong, or at least unable to take a stand against torture.

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    Re: Dutch court blocks extradition to U.S. over torture concerns.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    Out of a sample of about 8, most or all of them are Christian, practicing to one degree or another, all replied that they thought the torture was OK, that Cheney was right.

    The question was simply "what do you think about the Senate report showing we tortured?" And it was not simply a poll, it was a discussion with statements and questions back and forth.

    "Terrorist" here is defined neither by me or by you. No, I don't think that the average American is 'similar' to a terrorist, whatever exactly that means.

    But, within my group, the average American is a moral midget, unable to tell the difference between right and wrong, or at least unable to take a stand against torture.
    Right and wrong are relative. If you don't want to be tortured, don't stand against us. All hadji has to do is stop beating his wife and work on his own community before judging the rest of the world. But he doesn't want to do that, he wants to play dirty, and if he wants to disregard the "rules" well then we can disregard the "rules" too.

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    Re: Dutch court blocks extradition to U.S. over torture concerns.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Right and wrong are relative. If you don't want to be tortured, don't stand against us. All hadji has to do is stop beating his wife and work on his own community before judging the rest of the world. But he doesn't want to do that, he wants to play dirty, and if he wants to disregard the "rules" well then we can disregard the "rules" too.
    Yes, of course, right and wrong are relative. If it's one of your relatives that is being tortured, it's wrong, unless it happens to be your mother-in-law.

    If it is a muslim, a hadji, well it's just fine. That was the rationale offered by several in my sample group, members of the Dick Cheney Fan Club. YOU are in the majority of my sample group--supporting torture as long as it's not done to one of your own.

    MLK was quite right on a philosophical level--man was born into barbarism when killing (or torturing) his fellow man was a normal condition of existence.

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    Re: Dutch court blocks extradition to U.S. over torture concerns.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    It is too simple to state that. The Dutch government cannot extradite him at this moment in time. This is because this was a ruling in a "kort geding" (preliminary relief proceedings) which is a preliminary court case which normally is followed by a more extensive court case about the extradition question.

    The court, in a previous court case ordered the Dutch government to investigate the circumstances of the original arrest which lead to the torture of Khan.

    This court case has been going on for years, it went all the way to our version of the Supreme Court. And as said it all boils down to the international treaty (of which the Netherlands is a participant) that forbids governments from extraditing suspects if it can be suspected that the country who asks for the extradition was involved in the torture of the suspect.

    All in all a very difficult case. At first the court ruled in favor of the government but on appeal the court decided that, in part due to the known involvement of the CIA with the ISI, there are too many unanswered/un-investigated questions left for them to decide to approve the extradition. As said, this is in no means final. Extradition is still a possibility.

    This is part of the court ruling (translated):

    The circumstances mentioned in the letter from October 15 2014, that the Pakistani government had their own reasons to arrest the plaintiff, does not give the court reason to change it's opinion. The only thing that is different from the previous court proceeding is that this letter states that the plaintiff was also suspected of crimes on Pakistani soil, but this does not change the fact that the Pakistani government did not want to proceed with criminal proceedings against the plaintiff and instead extradited him to the Netherlands. This letter does not change the previous ruling from the court that this could indicate that it was the US all along, and not Pakistan, who asked/had grounds for his arrest in the first place. The court also notes that it has not been given a sufficient explanation as to why, within three days of his arrest, the US asked for extradition of the plaintiff and that the US petitioned the Netherlands for extradition of the plaintiff three months before the suspect was even transferred to the Netherlands. The fact that his extradition was asked so quickly after his Pakistani arrest and the fact that his extradition request precedes his actual transfer to the Netherlands by three months, has not convinced the court that the Dutch government has done a sufficient investigation, as mandated by this court, into the circumstances of the plaintiffs arrest in Pakistan.


    3.7.

    Concluding, based on the previous (all of the previous, not just the part I have just translated for you) is that the court is of the opinion, that the uncertainty as to whether or not there was a possible involvement of the US in the torture of the plaintiff still remains. This means that the extradition of the plaintiff to the US is still deemed unlawful. Now that the Government, at the hearing has indicated that it does not think that the question whether or not the CIA was involved has any relevance and that the state has not offered to ask further questions about this to the US government, and there has been no indication or evidence that the US government by their own volition has offered further information regarding the arrest, means that this court sees no reason to give the State the opportunity to further investigate this before the court gives it's ruling. The primarily requested ban on extradition, made by the plaintiff is here by awarded.
    Good morning, Peter King.

    Thank you for the excellent and informative explanation! This confirms to me that we are not aware of half of what is going on at any given time, or the reasons for same. There are courts and a legal system in place in most civilized countries to provide protection for the people, and I like to believe that most of the time they do the right thing. We all know that some who are guilty sometimes escape punishment, while some innocent are wrongly charged, but it's got to be more just and fair overall than the free-for-all that would be the alternative if only one person such as a dictator or other absolute ruler were making all the rules.

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    Re: Dutch court blocks extradition to U.S. over torture concerns.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    Yes, of course, right and wrong are relative. If it's one of your relatives that is being tortured, it's wrong, unless it happens to be your mother-in-law.
    I have relatives I wouldn't try to save from Git'Mo. My aunt who's doing hard time for operating a meth lab, for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    If it is a muslim, a hadji, well it's just fine.
    Or anyone working to attack the US, yeah.

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    That was the rationale offered by several in my sample group, members of the Dick Cheney Fan Club. YOU are in the majority of my sample group--supporting torture as long as it's not done to one of your own.
    I also support intercepting the ball as long as it's not don to my team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    MLK was quite right on a philosophical level--man was born into barbarism when killing (or torturing) his fellow man was a normal condition of existence.
    Yep, and it's not ever gonna stop. We may reduce it a bit, we may get better at it, but in the end we're not going to take casualties just so the terrorist can save a trip to the emergency room.

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    Re: Dutch court blocks extradition to U.S. over torture concerns.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    It is too simple to state that. The Dutch government cannot extradite him at this moment in time. This is because this was a ruling in a "kort geding" (preliminary relief proceedings) which is a preliminary court case which normally is followed by a more extensive court case about the extradition question.

    The court, in a previous court case ordered the Dutch government to investigate the circumstances of the original arrest which lead to the torture of Khan.

    This court case has been going on for years, it went all the way to our version of the Supreme Court. And as said it all boils down to the international treaty (of which the Netherlands is a participant) that forbids governments from extraditing suspects if it can be suspected that the country who asks for the extradition was involved in the torture of the suspect.

    All in all a very difficult case. At first the court ruled in favor of the government but on appeal the court decided that, in part due to the known involvement of the CIA with the ISI, there are too many unanswered/un-investigated questions left for them to decide to approve the extradition. As said, this is in no means final. Extradition is still a possibility.

    This is part of the court ruling (translated):

    The circumstances mentioned in the letter from October 15 2014, that the Pakistani government had their own reasons to arrest the plaintiff, does not give the court reason to change it's opinion. The only thing that is different from the previous court proceeding is that this letter states that the plaintiff was also suspected of crimes on Pakistani soil, but this does not change the fact that the Pakistani government did not want to proceed with criminal proceedings against the plaintiff and instead extradited him to the Netherlands. This letter does not change the previous ruling from the court that this could indicate that it was the US all along, and not Pakistan, who asked/had grounds for his arrest in the first place. The court also notes that it has not been given a sufficient explanation as to why, within three days of his arrest, the US asked for extradition of the plaintiff and that the US petitioned the Netherlands for extradition of the plaintiff three months before the suspect was even transferred to the Netherlands. The fact that his extradition was asked so quickly after his Pakistani arrest and the fact that his extradition request precedes his actual transfer to the Netherlands by three months, has not convinced the court that the Dutch government has done a sufficient investigation, as mandated by this court, into the circumstances of the plaintiffs arrest in Pakistan.


    3.7.

    Concluding, based on the previous (all of the previous, not just the part I have just translated for you) is that the court is of the opinion, that the uncertainty as to whether or not there was a possible involvement of the US in the torture of the plaintiff still remains. This means that the extradition of the plaintiff to the US is still deemed unlawful. Now that the Government, at the hearing has indicated that it does not think that the question whether or not the CIA was involved has any relevance and that the state has not offered to ask further questions about this to the US government, and there has been no indication or evidence that the US government by their own volition has offered further information regarding the arrest, means that this court sees no reason to give the State the opportunity to further investigate this before the court gives it's ruling. The primarily requested ban on extradition, made by the plaintiff is here by awarded.
    These bureaucrats when given a desk, a dark uniform and a title, behave like bureaucrats everywhere. Holland would make a great Gitmo. Given the speed and efficiency of the Dutch Courts they'd be there for 50 years before they were considered for release.

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    Re: Dutch court blocks extradition to U.S. over torture concerns.....

    Quote Originally Posted by polgara View Post
    Good morning, Peter King.

    Thank you for the excellent and informative explanation! This confirms to me that we are not aware of half of what is going on at any given time, or the reasons for same. There are courts and a legal system in place in most civilized countries to provide protection for the people, and I like to believe that most of the time they do the right thing. We all know that some who are guilty sometimes escape punishment, while some innocent are wrongly charged, but it's got to be more just and fair overall than the free-for-all that would be the alternative if only one person such as a dictator or other absolute ruler were making all the rules.
    There is also the argument that all the democracies have to cooperate, trust, think quickly and move swiftly, given that there is a war going on. If the Dutch choose to dither then they should be bypassed whenever possible.

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    Re: Dutch court blocks extradition to U.S. over torture concerns.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    Out of a sample of about 8, most or all of them are Christian, practicing to one degree or another, all replied that they thought the torture was OK, that Cheney was right.

    The question was simply "what do you think about the Senate report showing we tortured?" And it was not simply a poll, it was a discussion with statements and questions back and forth.

    "Terrorist" here is defined neither by me or by you. No, I don't think that the average American is 'similar' to a terrorist, whatever exactly that means.

    But, within my group, the average American is a moral midget, unable to tell the difference between right and wrong, or at least unable to take a stand against torture.
    So, despite your claim that
    "the average American is a moral midget, unable to tell the difference between right and wrong, or at least unable to take a stand against torture" you feel your questions were fairly phrased, without bias, and representative of the American people and not just your friends.

    You background in science must have helped you with your global warming studies as well.

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    Re: Dutch court blocks extradition to U.S. over torture concerns.....

    Quote Originally Posted by polgara View Post
    Good morning, Peter King.

    Thank you for the excellent and informative explanation! This confirms to me that we are not aware of half of what is going on at any given time, or the reasons for same. There are courts and a legal system in place in most civilized countries to provide protection for the people, and I like to believe that most of the time they do the right thing. We all know that some who are guilty sometimes escape punishment, while some innocent are wrongly charged, but it's got to be more just and fair overall than the free-for-all that would be the alternative if only one person such as a dictator or other absolute ruler were making all the rules.
    The handy part is that all judicial decisions are made public on a website of the courts. Sadly for most readers here is that it is only in Dutch so only Dutch people can read it.

    And you are right, this is a very complicated case for courts to decide. Especially if the case took place in a country outside of the Netherlands in a country with sketchy track records as to torturing suspect.

    Was Khan arrested in Pakistan at the request of the CIA/US government? That is where this whole issues begins and ends. If he was not, extradition is possible. At first he gave 2 reasons as to why he should not be extradited, first of all him being tortured and secondly he claimed his treatment for ptss would compromised. At first the court decided that there was no problem with his extradition, only on appeal the court decided that the PTSS angle was nonsense but the torture angle was something that had to be investigated prior to extradition. Now if the Dutch and US government would get active, then it could be cleared much earlier and then he might be extradited very quickly.
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

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    Re: Dutch court blocks extradition to U.S. over torture concerns.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    There is also the argument that all the democracies have to cooperate, trust, think quickly and move swiftly, given that there is a war going on. If the Dutch choose to dither then they should be bypassed whenever possible.
    Then there is also the argument that government have to comply with the international law and national law, trust is fine but not at the expense of the law or legal procedures.

    And if other countries would not torture (Pakistan) or other governments ask rogue torturing government to torture on their behalf, this all would be a non issue. This all started with the torture of this guy, if he had not been tortured, the Dutch government would already have been able to extradite him.
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

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