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U.S. to begin to train and equip moderate Syria rebels

Hamster Buddha said:
Fair point. But even then, it's one thing to say you are going to work with one another against a common foe, it's another thing to actually pull it off. Come to think about it, I think Saladin actually faced a similar situation. I believe he ended up murdering the guy and his family, and absorb their strength into his instead of working with them.
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It is a hypothetical scenario, in which case they may cooperate instead.

Hamster Buddha said:
Fair point I suppose, so let me be real then. We are going to consistently have a problem with democracies in the region as long as the majority of the population continues to support Islam, specifically the intolerant and oppressive strain that exists in the Middle East. Unless you see them hitting an Enlightenment Phase in the next few years, I doubt we'll ever see natural change.
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Would like to enlighten you that the Renessaince period took ages to make enough people aware that there is life above religion in Europe. These things take time.

Hamster Buddha said:
I can certainly understand from a Historical perspective why it would seem that way, and you know how I love History and love to use it, but this is one of the rare instances where I don't think it applies. For one thing, especially from a military perspective, it is far easier to target a destroy a single entity with a standing army. I mean, more so than nation building, our military was meant to engage in large scale combat against an organized foe who has a single command and control. You see, we would then be fighting a war that plays to our strengths instead of to our weaknesses, which is what trying to invade the Middle East right now would entail.
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Very risky to allow a centralized ME power to grow first, only to break it down back to this current state. Would cost a lot and would be wasted for they are already divided as they are today. Why allow them to grow?

Hamster Buddha said:
Also, there is something to be said for the shock value. Back in WW2, the MacArthur understood this very well and used the people's own belief system to make the transition much easier. This is why we kept the Emperor alive and never tried him for war crimes. He was a far more useful tool alive and dead. But more importantly, it did a lot to shock the Japanese people to be humbled. And more than anything, if Islam is to be contained, the people have to be humbled to the point where they no longer believe (as the majority of many Arab nations do) that it's okay to punish those that leave Islam and convert (or I suppose go Atheist). You wanna know the smartest thing MacArthur did during the entire war? This Photo:

View attachment 67179038

The image of MacArthur towering above the Emperor, a man who most Japanese had never seen before and most saw as a god-like figure, was very humbling. And regardless of if we end up having to deal with one enemy, or a dozen, the only way we end this scourge once and for all, is by breaking their will and making them know that violence will no longer be tolerated.
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Different wars have different ways in dealing with them. There should be other ways to tackle the backward mentality that the religion supports over there.
 
MMC said:
Mornin D. :2wave: Throwing money to these guys and training them is a waste of time and Money. But that's not to say they can't be used for bait!
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Hay MMC :)

You never know.

Perhaps these will remain moderate or secular enough to do the job.
 
Hamster Buddha said:
Saudi Arabia and ISIS would never be allies. One's Sunni and the other's Shia with all the baggage that entails. Part of the reason for the Conflict in Iraq is that you have the Sunni ISIS that is pushing through friendly Sunni territory, and not is being resisted by Shia Iraq that will be backed by the Sauds.

Something major would have to shift for these two to work together.
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Mornin' HBuddha. :2wave: <<<<< Hits Gong!
th


The Saud are Sunni and ISIS is Sunni.....It's due to the Sunni in Iraq not resisting ISIS. Due to the Shia's Treatment of the Sunni after they were given Iraq to run.

They wont work together with Baghdadi Bob telling the King of the Sauds. He no longer is in line for Ascension with Islam and their so called Prophet. Pretty much causing the Saud to tremble and fear. Considering it is Sunni.....that is making that known.
 
DDD said:
Hay MMC :)

You never know.

Perhaps these will remain moderate or secular enough to do the job.
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They don't have the numbers.....I only put up a couple links where they were switching to ISIS. Now the Rebels best fighters that were a brigade have joined ISIS. This leaves them with hardly any.

Also al Nusra just went in and forced capitulation and took whatever they had.
 
Hamster Buddha said:
Also, there is something to be said for the shock value. Back in WW2, the MacArthur understood this very well and used the people's own belief system to make the transition much easier. This is why we kept the Emperor alive and never tried him for war crimes. He was a far more useful tool alive and dead. But more importantly, it did a lot to shock the Japanese people to be humbled. And more than anything, if Islam is to be contained, the people have to be humbled to the point where they no longer believe (as the majority of many Arab nations do) that it's okay to punish those that leave Islam and convert (or I suppose go Atheist). You wanna know the smartest thing MacArthur did during the entire war? This Photo:

View attachment 67179038

The image of MacArthur towering above the Emperor, a man who most Japanese had never seen before and most saw as a god-like figure, was very humbling. And regardless of if we end up having to deal with one enemy, or a dozen, the only way we end this scourge once and for all, is by breaking their will and making them know that violence will no longer be tolerated.
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What I wanted to say with "every war is different" is that looking today McArthur had it easy. Disillusioning the Japanese is easier that disillusioning Muslims. The reason is that proving that the Emperor is not a god is easy because after all the Emperor was flesh and blood.

But how can one seriously prove a negative? Hot to prove that God does not exists?
 
Hamster Buddha said:
Saudi Arabia and ISIS would never be allies. One's Sunni and the other's Shia with all the baggage that entails. Part of the reason for the Conflict in Iraq is that you have the Sunni ISIS that is pushing through friendly Sunni territory, and not is being resisted by Shia Iraq that will be backed by the Sauds.

Something major would have to shift for these two to work together.
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No doubt-but that makes my point.
 
AJiveMan said:
I see, America should just ignore agreements they sign with other countries.

President Bush and Iraq Prime Minister Maliki Sign the Strategic Framework Agreement and Security Agreement

The USA should just do what it wants to do, and be the world's police force,

just think of all those Iraqis who were trained to protect themselves, and who received money, support and arms to defend their country with, all down the drain because their people were too gutless and lacked spine enough to protect themselves. They abandoned equipment and arms a ran away from a fight like little baby school boys.

Anything else you want to add to the conversation? Other than blame Obama?
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This is intellectually lazy. You'd sit by and smile at a paper while hundreds of thousands die in Iraq. Thats Unamerican, and any threatened Iraqi would smack that piece of paper out of your hands.

The leader of the free world does not get to hide behind paper-though you'd like to do just that.
 
US Conservative said:
I fear that when push comes to shove-the FSA will be eaten alive by ISIS.
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I don't think they have much of a force anymore.


Pentagon Official: The Facts Are In, And Obama’s Policy Is A Direct Danger.....to the United States.


The report is in, and the review of the president’s foreign policy is clear: If there is not an immediate course-reversal, the United States is in serious danger. In 2013, the United States Institute for Peace, “a congressionally-created, independent, nonpartisan institution whose mission is to prevent, mitigate, and resolve violent conflicts around the world,” was asked to assist the National Defense Panel with reviewing the Quadrennial Defense Review (QDR). The National Defense Panel is a congressional-mandated bipartisan commission that’s co-chairs were appointed by Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel.

On July 31, the National Defense Panel released its long-awaited report on the effects of the QDR and delivered its findings to Congress. The panel pulled no punches — its findings were a scathing indictment of Obama’s foreign policy, national security policy, and defense policy. The panel found that president Barack Obama’s QDR, military force reductions, and trillion-dollar defense budget cuts are dangerous — and will leave the country in a position where it is unable to respond to threats to our nation’s security. This, the panel concluded, must be reversed as soon as possible.....snip~

Pentagon Official: The Facts Are In, And Obama
 
US Conservative said:
This is intellectually lazy. You'd sit by and smile at a paper while hundreds of thousands die in Iraq. Thats Unamerican, and any threatened Iraqi would smack that piece of paper out of your hands.

The leader of the free world does not get to hide behind paper-though you'd like to do just that.
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So, you're pro spill more American blood and resources? I always knew conservatives and republicans were quite insane, but I didn't know how much.

You think Bush ever cared about Americans, or anyone else being killed in Iraq? Please, give us a break.
 
AJiveMan said:
I see, America should just ignore agreements they sign with other countries.

President Bush and Iraq Prime Minister Maliki Sign the Strategic Framework Agreement and Security Agreement

The USA should just do what it wants to do, and be the world's police force,

just think of all those Iraqis who were trained to protect themselves, and who received money, support and arms to defend their country with, all down the drain because their people were too gutless and lacked spine enough to protect themselves. They abandoned equipment and arms a ran away from a fight like little baby school boys.

Anything else you want to add to the conversation? Other than blame Obama?
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**** yes! I do.

Let's start with these "gutless" Iraqi's. Would that be the ones abandoned by Obama when he refused to leave troops in country?

Or was the need to get his incompetent ass re-elected more important than the lives of Iraqi's and the growing swell of fanaticism?

Blame Obama? **** YES! Who ELSE has been in charge of the United States military...Sarah Palin?

You do know that Barack Hussein Obama was sworn into office SEVEN years ago now, what Bush did is what is know as HISTORY, as he hasn't ordered the bombing of anyone in nearly a decade.

Obama is head of state.

Obama is Chief Executive Officer.

Obama is Commander in Chief.

Those aren't titles, son, they are job descriptions and nobody else is making the decisions on the war on terror, nor George Bush, Mitt Romney, Sarah Palin, the other George Bush, Jeb Bush, Ted Cruz, Ronald Reagan or anyone else....ONE MAN, Barrack Hussein Obama and the "audacity of hope" is entirely responsible for ever ****ing thing that happens in the entire United States government, just like every other president in the history of the United States, even the arrogant, self centered and incompetent Harry S. Truman who coined the phrase "the buck stops here"!

So get off the sorry old pity pot, wipe the poor me tears from your eyes, and accept the fact your messiah is a complete **** up.
 
11/03/14
Jihadists with the Al-Qaeda affiliate known as the Al-Nusra Front took control of several villages in Syria’s Idlib province over the weekend and reportedly seized weapons from Western-backed moderate rebel groups.
Upwards of 80 American-made TOW anti-tank missiles reportedly were captured by Al-Qaed-linked fighters in Syria after Western-supported opposition groups were overrun or defected to Al-Nusra Front

Al-Qaeda reportedly seizes US anti-tank rockets after defeating rival Syrian rebels ? RT USA

FSA types can't hold their lunch money, much less weapons.
arm the Kurds to the teeth with heavy weapons, and do it directly - not thru Baghdad's red tape/graft -
and forget this dream of moderate Syrian rebels. They switch alliances with alarming frequency
 
Fearandloathing said:
**** yes! I do.

Let's start with these "gutless" Iraqi's. Would that be the ones abandoned by Obama when he refused to leave troops in country?

Or was the need to get his incompetent ass re-elected more important than the lives of Iraqi's and the growing swell of fanaticism?

Blame Obama? **** YES! Who ELSE has been in charge of the United States military...Sarah Palin?

You do know that Barack Hussein Obama was sworn into office SEVEN years ago now, what Bush did is what is know as HISTORY, as he hasn't ordered the bombing of anyone in nearly a decade.

Obama is head of state.

Obama is Chief Executive Officer.

Obama is Commander in Chief.

Those aren't titles, son, they are job descriptions and nobody else is making the decisions on the war on terror, nor George Bush, Mitt Romney, Sarah Palin, the other George Bush, Jeb Bush, Ted Cruz, Ronald Reagan or anyone else....ONE MAN, Barrack Hussein Obama and the "audacity of hope" is entirely responsible for ever ****ing thing that happens in the entire United States government, just like every other president in the history of the United States, even the arrogant, self centered and incompetent Harry S. Truman who coined the phrase "the buck stops here"!

So get off the sorry old pity pot, wipe the poor me tears from your eyes, and accept the fact your messiah is a complete **** up.
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You do realize that when trained Iraqis were confronted with insurgents from IS, they abandoned their American weapons and ran away, yes? You know what an American would call an American who did that don't you? Does deserter, traitor mean anything?

I don't believe President Obama is my messiah, I believe that he is the right wing conservative's messiah, since they seem to be overly obsessed with every little thing Obama does, or doesn't do, it's called ODS.
 
Hamster Buddha said:
I'm pretty sure me and Conservative have been over this but no war in the history of mankind has been won through Air Power alone. At some point you have to move in and secure the locations on the ground with troops you can count on. And as has been so clearly demonstrated, local militias can't cut the mustard. The only ones with the capability to handle such a job are professional, western troops. What ultimately we'll have to do is the same thing we did with Japan; and that is occupy the country and take down everything that is even connected with Islam, same as we did with the warrior cult in Japan.
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There are so many Muslim jihadists in so many countries I doubt it would be practical to occupy them all. I think weak U.S. foreign policy has fed jihadism, and that a lot of what jihadists have dared to do, from 9/11 on, began with Iran. The regime in Tehran is the crown jewel of the movement, in a way, because it showed Muslim fanatics elsewhere, both Sunni and Shia, that they could hope to impose their shari'ah on even fairly large and important nations. That is exactly why it has been such a blunder for the U.S. to let it exist for thirty-five years, as it continued to sponsor jihadist attacks around the world that have killed thousands of American civilians and soldiers. It's been estimated that just the anti-tank mines Iranian operatives supplied their large network of jihadist cells in Iraq, and trained them how to use, killed at least six hundred American servicemen. Iran also directed a 2007 plot in which four Americans were seized in Karbala by operatives in American uniforms, and then driven to a remote area and murdered while still handcuffed together.

Why were these outrages and the many other over the years never answered with any real force? By tolerating this menace--and it is now on the verge of becoming a nuclear-armed menace--I think several administrations have encourages jihadists everywhere by making the U.S. seem to be weak and indecisive. At the least there should have been a full-scale effort to subvert and overthrow the mullahs' regime. And a lot more than that might have been done, including a blockade Iran would have been helpless to lift. No other nation had enough interest in the Khomeinists to have risked interfering, and their regime never could have survived the economic ruin and humiliation. By letting Khomeinist Iran survive, we have also let it try to extend its control westward through Assad's regime in Syria and through Iran's proxy Hizballah in Lebanon. This in turn has fomented the Sunni jihadists in Syria and Iraq to try to take control of those countries, and we are not doing a hell of a lot to stop them.
 
American said:
Are trying to sell us on the idea the Bush had authorization to use force? And by extension, Obama as well?
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jonny5 said:
He should probably claim that, though its starting to be a stretch. Syria didnt aid or plan 911 afaik. And congress probably ought to at least refresh it once in a while.
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"...there are thousands of these terrorist in more than sixty countries...."

ByOrLgWIQAAk81a.png

Notice 107-40 cited above.

Here is the law, just in case you want to read it again:
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-107publ40/html/PLAW-107publ40.htm

Enough said, carry on.
 
Fearandloathing said:
**** yes! I do.

Let's start with these "gutless" Iraqi's. Would that be the ones abandoned by Obama when he refused to leave troops in country?

Or was the need to get his incompetent ass re-elected more important than the lives of Iraqi's and the growing swell of fanaticism?

Blame Obama? **** YES! Who ELSE has been in charge of the United States military...Sarah Palin?

You do know that Barack Hussein Obama was sworn into office SEVEN years ago now, what Bush did is what is know as HISTORY, as he hasn't ordered the bombing of anyone in nearly a decade.

Obama is head of state.

Obama is Chief Executive Officer.

Obama is Commander in Chief.

Those aren't titles, son, they are job descriptions and nobody else is making the decisions on the war on terror, nor George Bush, Mitt Romney, Sarah Palin, the other George Bush, Jeb Bush, Ted Cruz, Ronald Reagan or anyone else....ONE MAN, Barrack Hussein Obama and the "audacity of hope" is entirely responsible for ever ****ing thing that happens in the entire United States government, just like every other president in the history of the United States, even the arrogant, self centered and incompetent Harry S. Truman who coined the phrase "the buck stops here"!

So get off the sorry old pity pot, wipe the poor me tears from your eyes, and accept the fact your messiah is a complete **** up.
Click to expand...

This is known as checkmate. :cool:
 
annata said:
11/03/14
Jihadists with the Al-Qaeda affiliate known as the Al-Nusra Front took control of several villages in Syria’s Idlib province over the weekend and reportedly seized weapons from Western-backed moderate rebel groups.
Upwards of 80 American-made TOW anti-tank missiles reportedly were captured by Al-Qaed-linked fighters in Syria after Western-supported opposition groups were overrun or defected to Al-Nusra Front

Al-Qaeda reportedly seizes US anti-tank rockets after defeating rival Syrian rebels ? RT USA

FSA types can't hold their lunch money, much less weapons.
arm the Kurds to the teeth with heavy weapons, and do it directly - not thru Baghdad's red tape/graft -
and forget this dream of moderate Syrian rebels. They switch alliances with alarming frequency
Click to expand...

That goes to show that these islamists will flip like its cool. Theres no shortage of anti tank missiles in the region, mostly from Russia.
 
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