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Thread: U.S. to begin to train and equip moderate Syria rebels

  1. #51
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    Re: U.S. to begin to train and equip moderate Syria rebels

    Quote Originally Posted by DDD View Post
    No,

    Allied air force attacks combined with local troops can work. See how it worked in the Balkans as an example.
    But it hasn't worked in an area that wasn't infested with Radical Islam. That is my point. Touche though, I didn't about that. We're also talking about a society that isn't about hundred or two hundred years behind the time.

    A very costly proposal. Costly both in money and in blood.[/QUOTE]

    Never said it wouldn't. But at a point down the line, the cost of inaction, will be higher.

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    Re: U.S. to begin to train and equip moderate Syria rebels

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    Which is the reason you'd have to take a scorched earth approach to the religion in the region. But even beyond that, Islam has become a danger even to those who practice it. And by that, I mean all the sectarian differences. In the scenario that we go in and acts as a true occupying power (we haven't really done this, instead opting to take a more hands off approach to internal politics). We broke Japan of Shintoism, we can do the same with Islam in the Middle East. They key would be we'd have to show a better way by providing rebuilding effort not seen since the Marshall Plan.
    I was getting worried that we cannot cover such a high price at the moment, but then:

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    Make no mistake, this will be the costliest endeavor in US History, and one which will have to have the cooperation of not just Europe and the US, but also other world powers affected by Islamic attacks such as Russia, China and even India. (as neither of those powers are going to be willing to sit back and allow NATO to carve up the Middle East without getting a cut). Again this solution isn't something that could be pulled off now of course, but only the worst comes to pass.
    You mean turn the whole world against the backwardness in the Middle East? That, of course, can work. I mean, even without the rest (especially not Russia), just consider China and India coming in for a cut!
    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Stats come out and always show life getting better. News makes money in making you think its not.
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    Re: U.S. to begin to train and equip moderate Syria rebels

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    But it hasn't worked in an area that wasn't infested with Radical Islam. That is my point.
    Hmmm, what about Bosnia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    Touche though, I didn't about that. We're also talking about a society that isn't about hundred or two hundred years behind the time.
    Bosnia was not that behind because of religion, true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    Never said it wouldn't. But at a point down the line, the cost of inaction, will be higher.
    While there I propose removing all other religions as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Stats come out and always show life getting better. News makes money in making you think its not.
    The Republic of Dardania is the proper name for: http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe...ification.html

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    Re: U.S. to begin to train and equip moderate Syria rebels

    Quote Originally Posted by DDD View Post
    You mean turn the whole world against the backwardness in the Middle East? That, of course, can work. I mean, even without the rest (especially not Russia), just consider China and India coming in for a cut!
    It's not just an economic cost if such an operation were to be undertaken that you have to consider. I mean, imagine it from the perspective of Russia and China, the prospect of the strategic adversaries suddenly being in control of so much of the world energy reserves? Were NATO to seriously consider such an endeavor, there'd have to be some sort of Potsdam Conference to split up the Middle East. Otherwise, as soon as we're done fighting Arabs, we'll end up fighting the Chinese and the Russians for much needed Oil.

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    Re: U.S. to begin to train and equip moderate Syria rebels

    Quote Originally Posted by DDD View Post
    Hmmm, what about Bosnia?

    Bosnia was not that behind because of religion, true.

    While there I propose removing all other religions as well.
    I can't imagine there's a lot of Christians and Jews hanging out in Riyadh. Again though, we'd have to do something along the lines of the Shinto Directive didn't outlaw the practice of Shintoism so much as it cut out all government support. It did go further though then merely establishing the Separation of Church and State though:

    The application of the directive relied upon a stream of instructions from the government covering a wide range of prohibitions:
    of visits to religious institutions by pupils at state schools and children of pre-school age
    of fundraising for shrines by local town committees; of the performance of groundbreaking (jichinsai) and roof-raising rites (jōtōsai) for public buildings
    of conducting funerals and rites of propitiation for the war dead by the state and public bodies
    and of the removal and/or erection of commemorative sites to the war dead.

    國*院デジタルミュージア*

    I don't agree we have to remove all religions, just make them equal. The way that was done in Japan:

    "According to the directive, State Shinto was to be stripped of public support and of its "ultra-nationalistic and militaristic" trappings. With the severing of its traditional state patronage the Shinto establishment required privatization, and to that end any Shinto entity that had been dependent on public funding but not actually part of the secular administrative structure was to be assimilated either into what the directive calls "Sect Shinto" with no special privileges above the other popular faiths, or to be reformed, with conditions stipulating complete and permanent loss of government support, as "Shrine Shinto," which was to be supported by voluntary private donation only."

    Shinto Directive - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Shintoism still exists today by the way, but it's of course very small portion. Only about 40% of Japan follow and organized religion, with the majority actually being Buddhist.

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    Re: U.S. to begin to train and equip moderate Syria rebels

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    There are terrorist from Morocco, but that comes more from the cancer that is within Islam today than any policies the state is enacting. I actually think that there's is a good model to work off of. The problem is that the infection may run so deep that eventually you have to deal with it.



    The problem is that this hasn't worked. I mean say what you will about Iraq, but the moment we took over, we were more than ready to hand over power to the Iraqis. And that just got blown up into a sectarian mess with Islam at the heart of it. Egypt ousted Mubarak, and what do the people do? They install the Muslim Brotherhood. We assist in the ousting in Lybia, and now that's a hot bed for Islamist. And Syria? Well, perhaps if we'd of kept our noses out of that, ISIS wouldn't of been a problem, especially of Saddam was still in power to prevent them from pushing as far in as they did.
    It didn't work in Iraq for the same reason ISIS is in Syria-it fills a power vacuum. If we hadn't ceded Iraq to them, we wouldn't be in this mess-do you honestly think if we left our forces in Iraq that we would even need to be having this discussion about ISIS in Iraq?

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    Re: U.S. to begin to train and equip moderate Syria rebels

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    It didn't work in Iraq for the same reason ISIS is in Syria-it fills a power vacuum. If we hadn't ceded Iraq to them, we wouldn't be in this mess-do you honestly think if we left our forces in Iraq that we would even need to be having this discussion about ISIS in Iraq?
    Yes because I think you still have a power vacuum. Unless the US becomes a colonial power in Iraq, then there was inevitably going to be a vacuum between the political factions. Perhaps ISIS isn't the problem they are right now, but I think you still have civil wars in Iraq and Syria because the causes of those two conflicts remain in place. I mean, the Arab Spring still happens, which ultimately leads to the Syrian Conflict. And you still an ineffectual government in Baghdad that abuses the Sunnis which leads to the conflict there.

    Maliki isn't stupid, he knows we couldn't take over Iraq again if we wanted to. So ultimately, the troops that remained would be giant bluff.

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    Re: U.S. to begin to train and equip moderate Syria rebels

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    Honestly, you know why they are doing this? Because they don't have the balls to go all in to solve the problem. And until the problem warrants that level of a solution, they will continue to try and copy of the success of the Afghan Campaign* (by success I mean ousting the Taliban from power.)
    What would solve the problem over there? turn the desert into glass?

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    Re: U.S. to begin to train and equip moderate Syria rebels

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    It didn't work in Iraq for the same reason ISIS is in Syria-it fills a power vacuum. If we hadn't ceded Iraq to them, we wouldn't be in this mess-do you honestly think if we left our forces in Iraq that we would even need to be having this discussion about ISIS in Iraq?
    If Iraq weren't ****ed with at all we wouldn't be in this situation either. ever think of that?

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    Re: U.S. to begin to train and equip moderate Syria rebels

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    Yes because I think you still have a power vacuum. Unless the US becomes a colonial power in Iraq, then there was inevitably going to be a vacuum between the political factions. Perhaps ISIS isn't the problem they are right now, but I think you still have civil wars in Iraq and Syria because the causes of those two conflicts remain in place. I mean, the Arab Spring still happens, which ultimately leads to the Syrian Conflict. And you still an ineffectual government in Baghdad that abuses the Sunnis which leads to the conflict there.

    Maliki isn't stupid, he knows we couldn't take over Iraq again if we wanted to. So ultimately, the troops that remained would be giant bluff.
    ISIS wasn't in Iraq (significantly) until we left. There is a variable there you must account for-our withdrawal.

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