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Thread: U.S. to begin to train and equip moderate Syria rebels

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    Re: U.S. to begin to train and equip moderate Syria rebels

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    One big problem for the Allies then was that their enemies were advanced industrial countries with real, formidable armies, air forces, and navies. Much of their weaponry was better than our own. That made for battles that were far more even than we would have liked, resulting in a lot of U.S. and British servicemen being killed, and things were even worse for the Russians. It's much better to make the battles we put our forces into as unfair as we can possibly make them.

    We should try to avoid fighting Muslim jihadists with infantrymen and rifles as much as possible, because even though our forces are far better trained, equipped, and led, and could count on being heavily supported by armed aircraft, sophisticated reconnaissance, armor, and so forth, things would still be even enough in many cases that our forces would suffer quite a few casualties. Sometimes, in some parts of the world, that may be the only way, but even then friendly local forces, if they are good enough to be a help, might do some of the soldiering.

    The U.S. should try to make more use of very powerful weapons the jihadists don't have and can't counter. One example is heavy bombers. I realize that these are not well suited to small, dispersed targets, but in Syria and Iraq, the jihadists seem to be operating our of cities, e.g. Raqqa, Mosul, Tikrit, and Ramadi. No one wants innocent people to be killed in bombing raids, but this country accepted in WWII that those deaths were unavoidable. We may have to accept it in fighting jihadists, too.They are very likely sheltering in cities because they believe people here could never stomach bombing those cities.

    But we should remember that the laws of war don't make war criminals like them immune to attack just because they fight from civilian areas. We cannot afford to let them to make cities in Syria and Iraq their safe havens. We may have to harden ourselves to doing some very unpleasant things to make the point that needs to be made to the jihadists: You cannot depend on Americans always to be as fastidious and humane as we usually have been. At some point, the effort to win the hearts and minds of Muslims has to be scrapped, and Iraqis, for example, who allow jihadist war criminals to operate amongst them warned to drive these people out themselves, or risk being bombed along with them.

    I'm well aware Barack Obama will never do any of this, but in two years he'll be gone. If we can wait that long to get serious about the enemy we are facing.
    I agree. I think its understood that this will be an asymmetrical conflict, no arab military has won against a modern western military. Any conventional force would be quickly destroyed (like iraq) and any heavy weapons captured by islamists would not last long.

    I hate to say it-but when one side is not willing to adhere to the laws of war, at times the response must be brutal to resolve things. As for the ugliest fighting we should be right behind our arab allies-and let them as arabs fight by arab rules.

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    Re: U.S. to begin to train and equip moderate Syria rebels

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    I agree. I think its understood that this will be an asymmetrical conflict, no arab military has won against a modern western military. Any conventional force would be quickly destroyed (like iraq) and any heavy weapons captured by islamists would not last long.

    I hate to say it-but when one side is not willing to adhere to the laws of war, at times the response must be brutal to resolve things. As for the ugliest fighting we should be right behind our arab allies-and let them as arabs fight by arab rules.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    One big problem for the Allies then was that their enemies were advanced industrial countries with real, formidable armies, air forces, and navies. Much of their weaponry was better than our own. That made for battles that were far more even than we would have liked, resulting in a lot of U.S. and British servicemen being killed, and things were even worse for the Russians. It's much better to make the battles we put our forces into as unfair as we can possibly make them.

    We should try to avoid fighting Muslim jihadists with infantrymen and rifles as much as possible, because even though our forces are far better trained, equipped, and led, and could count on being heavily supported by armed aircraft, sophisticated reconnaissance, armor, and so forth, things would still be even enough in many cases that our forces would suffer quite a few casualties. Sometimes, in some parts of the world, that may be the only way, but even then friendly local forces, if they are good enough to be a help, might do some of the soldiering.

    The U.S. should try to make more use of very powerful weapons the jihadists don't have and can't counter. One example is heavy bombers. I realize that these are not well suited to small, dispersed targets, but in Syria and Iraq, the jihadists seem to be operating our of cities, e.g. Raqqa, Mosul, Tikrit, and Ramadi. No one wants innocent people to be killed in bombing raids, but this country accepted in WWII that those deaths were unavoidable. We may have to accept it in fighting jihadists, too.They are very likely sheltering in cities because they believe people here could never stomach bombing those cities.

    But we should remember that the laws of war don't make war criminals like them immune to attack just because they fight from civilian areas. We cannot afford to let them to make cities in Syria and Iraq their safe havens. We may have to harden ourselves to doing some very unpleasant things to make the point that needs to be made to the jihadists: You cannot depend on Americans always to be as fastidious and humane as we usually have been. At some point, the effort to win the hearts and minds of Muslims has to be scrapped, and Iraqis, for example, who allow jihadist war criminals to operate amongst them warned to drive these people out themselves, or risk being bombed along with them.

    I'm well aware Barack Obama will never do any of this, but in two years he'll be gone. If we can wait that long to get serious about the enemy we are facing.
    I'm pretty sure me and Conservative have been over this but no war in the history of mankind has been won through Air Power alone. At some point you have to move in and secure the locations on the ground with troops you can count on. And as has been so clearly demonstrated, local militias can't cut the mustard. The only ones with the capability to handle such a job are professional, western troops. What ultimately we'll have to do is the same thing we did with Japan; and that is occupy the country and take down everything that is even connected with Islam, same as we did with the warrior cult in Japan.

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    Re: U.S. to begin to train and equip moderate Syria rebels

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    I'm pretty sure me and Conservative have been over this but no war in the history of mankind has been won through Air Power alone. At some point you have to move in and secure the locations on the ground with troops you can count on. And as has been so clearly demonstrated, local militias can't cut the mustard. The only ones with the capability to handle such a job are professional, western troops. What ultimately we'll have to do is the same thing we did with Japan; and that is occupy the country and take down everything that is even connected with Islam, same as we did with the warrior cult in Japan.
    Do we have to destroy every mosque?
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    Re: U.S. to begin to train and equip moderate Syria rebels

    Quote Originally Posted by Unitedwestand13 View Post
    Do we have to destroy every mosque?
    Yes. In the Middle East. Not now mind you, because there is still (faint) hope that a more enlightened and moderate Islam will develop. After an attack using a WMD that kills tens if not hundreds of thousands? Forget about it...

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    Re: U.S. to begin to train and equip moderate Syria rebels

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    I'm pretty sure me and Conservative have been over this but no war in the history of mankind has been won through Air Power alone. At some point you have to move in and secure the locations on the ground with troops you can count on. And as has been so clearly demonstrated, local militias can't cut the mustard. The only ones with the capability to handle such a job are professional, western troops. What ultimately we'll have to do is the same thing we did with Japan; and that is occupy the country and take down everything that is even connected with Islam, same as we did with the warrior cult in Japan.
    Indeed. The political winds may not be to that point yet-but the longer we wait the worse it will be.

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    Re: U.S. to begin to train and equip moderate Syria rebels

    Quote Originally Posted by Unitedwestand13 View Post
    Do we have to destroy every mosque?
    If there are combatants operating out of there or anyone aiding the enemy-its a legitimate military target. Frankly after ISIS got there-they are used to mosques being destroyed. No more PC BS.

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    Re: U.S. to begin to train and equip moderate Syria rebels

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    If there are combatants operating out of there or anyone aiding the enemy-its a legitimate military target. Frankly after ISIS got there-they are used to mosques being destroyed. No more PC BS.
    I find it tragic that we have to destroy ancient buildings.

    It is monte Cassino all over again.
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    Re: U.S. to begin to train and equip moderate Syria rebels

    Quote Originally Posted by Utility Man View Post
    See here:









    Are trying to sell us on the idea the Bush had authorization to use force? And by extension, Obama as well?
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    Re: U.S. to begin to train and equip moderate Syria rebels

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    If there are combatants operating out of there or anyone aiding the enemy-its a legitimate military target. Frankly after ISIS got there-they are used to mosques being destroyed. No more PC BS.
    Which is the reason you'd have to take a scorched earth approach to the religion in the region. But even beyond that, Islam has become a danger even to those who practice it. And by that, I mean all the sectarian differences. In the scenario that we go in and acts as a true occupying power (we haven't really done this, instead opting to take a more hands off approach to internal politics). We broke Japan of Shintoism, we can do the same with Islam in the Middle East. They key would be we'd have to show a better way by providing rebuilding effort not seen since the Marshall Plan.

    Make no mistake, this will be the costliest endeavor in US History, and one which will have to have the cooperation of not just Europe and the US, but also other world powers affected by Islamic attacks such as Russia, China and even India. (as neither of those powers are going to be willing to sit back and allow NATO to carve up the Middle East without getting a cut). Again this solution isn't something that could be pulled off now of course, but only the worst comes to pass.

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    Re: U.S. to begin to train and equip moderate Syria rebels

    Quote Originally Posted by Unitedwestand13 View Post
    I find it tragic that we have to destroy ancient buildings.

    It is monte Cassino all over again.
    Monte Casino is nothing compared to what would be necessary. We would be bringing about an idea that is alien to this part of the world that we in the west have taken advantage of for hundreds of years: Separation of Church and State.

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