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Thread: U.S. to begin to train and equip moderate Syria rebels

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    Re: U.S. to begin to train and equip moderate Syria rebels

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    1.)This is breaking news? We have been doing this for the bast 3 years now.... U.S. has secretly provided arms training to Syria rebels since 2012 - Los Angeles Times Americans are training Syria rebels in Jordan: Spiegel | Reuters West training Syrian rebels in Jordan | World news | The Guardian
    2.)I wonder what their endgame is? Lets say in some god given miracle theses "moderate rebels" actually win. What happens? Peace and democracy!? I doubt it, I bet the factions turn against each other and we have something like current day Libya..... It looks like Obama stays the course of the neo-liberal foreign policy that has been with us for the past 30 years...
    Honestly, you know why they are doing this? Because they don't have the balls to go all in to solve the problem. And until the problem warrants that level of a solution, they will continue to try and copy of the success of the Afghan Campaign* (by success I mean ousting the Taliban from power.)

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    Re: U.S. to begin to train and equip moderate Syria rebels

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    Honestly, you know why they are doing this? Because they don't have the balls to go all in to solve the problem. And until the problem warrants that level of a solution, they will continue to try and copy of the success of the Afghan Campaign* (by success I mean ousting the Taliban from power.)
    So you want to currently invade Syria?


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    Re: U.S. to begin to train and equip moderate Syria rebels

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    So you want to currently invade Syria?
    Currently? No. The political will doesn't exist for something on that scale. But at some point down the line, one of these whack job lone wolf terrorist will get a hold of something that can do a little more damage than an AK. The problem with Islam today, not just the "radical Islamist" is that when they are introduced to new societies, instead of assimilating into the culture, they bring their own over and believe it to be superior. And as long as that belief is held, there will be conflict. Especially when so many support the use of violence, even if they themselves will not commit it. And on that day when the dead bodies will have to be dumped in mass graves because there's just too many to hold proper funeral for, we'll have to start treating Islam as the threat to our society as it is. At the very least the Middle East will have to be confronted. And if we don't then we'll lose all of Europe to that ideology, as that is the course we are on.

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    Re: U.S. to begin to train and equip moderate Syria rebels

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    Currently? No. The political will doesn't exist for something on that scale. But at some point down the line, one of these whack job lone wolf terrorist will get a hold of something that can do a little more damage than an AK. The problem with Islam today, not just the "radical Islamist" is that when they are introduced to new societies, instead of assimilating into the culture, they bring their own over and believe it to be superior. And as long as that belief is held, there will be conflict. Especially when so many support the use of violence, even if they themselves will not commit it. And on that day when the dead bodies will have to be dumped in mass graves because there's just too many to hold proper funeral for, we'll have to start treating Islam as the threat to our society as it is. At the very least the Middle East will have to be confronted. And if we don't then we'll lose all of Europe to that ideology, as that is the course we are on.
    Its going to happen-there will be a large scale conflict (maybe this is the start of it-ceding Iraq to terrorists and whats happening in Syria). I think when it does most westerners will prefer to fight there rather than fight in europe and elsewhere.

    I wasn't around in the years before WW2, but I can't help but note the same feeling-everyone knows war is coming-the question is when and where and why.

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    Re: U.S. to begin to train and equip moderate Syria rebels

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    Currently? No. The political will doesn't exist for something on that scale. But at some point down the line, one of these whack job lone wolf terrorist will get a hold of something that can do a little more damage than an AK. The problem with Islam today, not just the "radical Islamist" is that when they are introduced to new societies, instead of assimilating into the culture, they bring their own over and believe it to be superior. And as long as that belief is held, there will be conflict. Especially when so many support the use of violence, even if they themselves will not commit it. And on that day when the dead bodies will have to be dumped in mass graves because there's just too many to hold proper funeral for, we'll have to start treating Islam as the threat to our society as it is. At the very least the Middle East will have to be confronted. And if we don't then we'll lose all of Europe to that ideology, as that is the course we are on.
    Big hypothetical example. So what do you think that should be done?


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    Re: U.S. to begin to train and equip moderate Syria rebels

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Big hypothetical example. So what do you think that should be done?
    It's not as far fetched as you may think though. Just look at the current demographic trends in Europe. Very similar to the US where the population is growing darker, so is Europe. As the majority white population grows older and end up having less children. On the other hand, you have a large influx of Arab immigrants coming in that are having children at a much larger rate than their White European counter parts. Eventually, the same thing that will happened in a generation or two in the US will happened in Europe. Except, instead of it being Latino immigrants and blacks that for the most part do assimilate into our culture, it will be Arabs that overtake the whites and Islam will become the dominant religion, followed shortly thereafter by Sharia law like you see in the Middle East.

    As far as what should be done? We need to stop treating Islam on equal terms, and expose it for the cancer it is. Maybe some day down the line Islam (specifically in the Middle East where most of these immigrants are coming from) can reform to a status that Christianity is today (basically cut out all the intolerance ****, or at the very least the forcing the intolerance **** and killing anyone who disagrees), but for now, it needs to be shown for the sharlitan it is and stop making excuses for it. We need to redouble our efforts to get off of foreign oil, the quickest means is to do a combination of increasing our production capacity while finishing the work to make clean energy affordable and practical to cut off the money to these governments. And finally, we prepare for war. Not openly, but we need to be ready for when they come because they will.

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    Re: U.S. to begin to train and equip moderate Syria rebels

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    .......did the President consult with congress before putting US soldiers in harms way, as is required by law? And will he seek authorization as required by law?

    How many wars is this now? Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Yemen, Somalia. You might say its one big war on terror.
    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Yeah, where's the Declaration of War from Congress?
    See here:

    SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

    This joint resolution may be cited as the ``Authorization for Use of
    Military Force''.

    SEC. 2. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.

    (a) <<NOTE: President.>> In General.--That the President is
    authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those
    nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized,
    committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11,
    2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any
    future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such
    nations, organizations or persons.

    (b) War Powers Resolution Requirements.--
    (1) Specific statutory authorization.--Consistent with
    section 8(a)(1) of the War Powers Resolution, the Congress
    declares that this section is intended to constitute specific
    statutory authorization within the meaning of section 5(b) of
    the War Powers Resolution.


    http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-10...-107publ40.htm
    SEC. 8. (a) Authority to introduce United States Armed Forces into hostilities or into situations wherein involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances shall not be inferred--
    (1) from any provision of law (whether or not in effect before the date of the enactment of this joint resolution), including any provision contained in any appropriation Act, unless such provision specifically authorizes the introduction of United States Armed Forces into hostilities or into such situations and stating that it is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of this joint resolution....

    SEC. 5. (b) Within sixty calendar days after a report is submitted or is required to be submitted pursuant to section 4(a)(1), whichever is earlier, the President shall terminate any use of United States Armed Forces with respect to which such report was submitted (or required to be submitted), unless the Congress (1) has declared war or has enacted a specific authorization for such use of United States Armed Forces

    War Powers Resolution of 1973


    ....You might say its one big war on terror....
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    There were, by most estimates, 500 Nazis in Charlottesville. One of them went homicidal. Not all Nazis are violent extremists. You are trying to rationalize your hatred and it's simply not rational.
    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    as I noted, its better that 10 nutjobs get guns than one good person be wrongly disarmed.

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    Re: U.S. to begin to train and equip moderate Syria rebels

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    It's not as far fetched as you may think though. Just look at the current demographic trends in Europe. Very similar to the US where the population is growing darker, so is Europe.
    So this is about skin color?

    [QUOTE] As the majority white population grows older and end up having less children. On the other hand, you have a large influx of Arab immigrants coming in that are having children at a much larger rate than their White European counter parts. Eventually, the same thing that will happened in a generation or two in the US will happened in Europe. Except, instead of it being Latino immigrants and blacks that for the most part do assimilate into our culture, it will be Arabs that overtake the whites and Islam will become the dominant religion, followed shortly thereafter by Sharia law like you see in the Middle East. [QUOTE]
    Thats quite the jump. What Ive learned. 1.)Why dont you want to be a minority? Is it like they are treated differently? 2.)Somehow people practicing Islam equates to "Shariah law!?".? Ummm around 24% of the world practices Islam ,24% of the world is not ruled by Shriah law...

    As far as what should be done? We need to stop treating Islam on equal terms, and expose it for the cancer it is. Maybe some day down the line Islam (specifically in the Middle East where most of these immigrants are coming from) can reform to a status that Christianity is today (basically cut out all the intolerance ****, or at the very least the forcing the intolerance **** and killing anyone who disagrees), but for now, it needs to be shown for the sharlitan it is and stop making excuses for it. We need to redouble our efforts to get off of foreign oil, the quickest means is to do a combination of increasing our production capacity while finishing the work to make clean energy affordable and practical to cut off the money to these governments. And finally, we prepare for war. Not openly, but we need to be ready for when they come because they will.
    My religion is better than yours, and we need to prepare for war against a religion. Wow.......


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    Re: U.S. to begin to train and equip moderate Syria rebels

    Had to clean up your post quotes, hope you didn't mind:

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    So this is about skin color?
    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Thats quite the jump. What Ive learned. 1.)Why dont you want to be a minority? Is it like they are treated differently? 2.)Somehow people practicing Islam equates to "Shariah law!?".? Ummm around 24% of the world practices Islam ,24% of the world is not ruled by Shriah law...
    Don't be so dense Dem, this is about a demographic and culture change. You're (I assume) intelligent enough to know the difference.

    You know why this isn't an issue in the US? Because we don't have the same issue with a assimilating new cultures as the Europeans do. I mean, I don't have to worry about Latino Catholics chopping off heads of any Muslims in the US, now do I? So don't bring up Straw-man arguments like that. Second, if you payed close attention to my post I was very specific to limit to the Islam in the Middle East. It is true that it is far less of a concern, say in Indonesia or in the US. That is the brand of Islam that is being spread to Europe, and polls have regularly shown that Muslims in the Middle East support the application of Sharia, as well as the barbaric ideas that go along with it including the poor treatment of women, converts, and anyone who disagrees with their religion. If you don't believe me, why don't you go and ask Raif Badawi.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    My religion is better than yours, and we need to prepare for war against a religion. Wow.......
    Again, another Straw Man argument. This has never been a discussion of whose religion is better than another, but about one religion that is willing to go to whatever means necessary to achieve it's goals. It's not just about the fringe that do the attacks, or larger (yet still minority) that support or agree with such violence but don't commit it. It's about a religion that isn't assimilating that is bringing an archaic worldview over that is incompatible with the west. I'm going to assume you're not going to support that we should allow flogging of individuals who openly challenge clerics, which means at some point down the line, you'll have to do what everyone else will have to decide; capitulate to the demands of Islam and allow these populations to grow until they usurp you, or do something to stop it.

    I'll end with a simple reminder that the majority of Germans weren't Nazis. That didn't seem to stop them from assuming power and plunging the world into the deadliest conflict in human history... now did it?

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    Re: U.S. to begin to train and equip moderate Syria rebels

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Its going to happen-there will be a large scale conflict (maybe this is the start of it-ceding Iraq to terrorists and whats happening in Syria). I think when it does most westerners will prefer to fight there rather than fight in europe and elsewhere.

    I wasn't around in the years before WW2, but I can't help but note the same feeling-everyone knows war is coming-the question is when and where and why.
    One big problem for the Allies then was that their enemies were advanced industrial countries with real, formidable armies, air forces, and navies. Much of their weaponry was better than our own. That made for battles that were far more even than we would have liked, resulting in a lot of U.S. and British servicemen being killed, and things were even worse for the Russians. It's much better to make the battles we put our forces into as unfair as we can possibly make them.

    We should try to avoid fighting Muslim jihadists with infantrymen and rifles as much as possible, because even though our forces are far better trained, equipped, and led, and could count on being heavily supported by armed aircraft, sophisticated reconnaissance, armor, and so forth, things would still be even enough in many cases that our forces would suffer quite a few casualties. Sometimes, in some parts of the world, that may be the only way, but even then friendly local forces, if they are good enough to be a help, might do some of the soldiering.

    The U.S. should try to make more use of very powerful weapons the jihadists don't have and can't counter. One example is heavy bombers. I realize that these are not well suited to small, dispersed targets, but in Syria and Iraq, the jihadists seem to be operating our of cities, e.g. Raqqa, Mosul, Tikrit, and Ramadi. No one wants innocent people to be killed in bombing raids, but this country accepted in WWII that those deaths were unavoidable. We may have to accept it in fighting jihadists, too.They are very likely sheltering in cities because they believe people here could never stomach bombing those cities.

    But we should remember that the laws of war don't make war criminals like them immune to attack just because they fight from civilian areas. We cannot afford to let them to make cities in Syria and Iraq their safe havens. We may have to harden ourselves to doing some very unpleasant things to make the point that needs to be made to the jihadists: You cannot depend on Americans always to be as fastidious and humane as we usually have been. At some point, the effort to win the hearts and minds of Muslims has to be scrapped, and Iraqis, for example, who allow jihadist war criminals to operate amongst them warned to drive these people out themselves, or risk being bombed along with them.

    I'm well aware Barack Obama will never do any of this, but in two years he'll be gone. If we can wait that long to get serious about the enemy we are facing.

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