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Duke Cancels Muslim Call to Prayer; Cites Opposition, Safety.....

justabubba said:
share with us what would have been wrong for the student muslims at duke university to be summoned to prayer on fridays by appeal from the university bell tower


except pretend that they are being discriminated against by allowing another faith access to the bell tower used to summons Christian students to prayer on sundays

for a gang who so strongly and loudly object to anything PC, y'all sure got your panties in a wad over this matter, now celebrating when PC prevails
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- First, it is not a "university bell tower" per se. Rather, it is the bell tower of a Christian chapel.

- Secondly, Duke was founded as a Christian religous college. So, not surprisingly, it contains both a Christian Chapel and bells apparently sound on Sundays.

- Thirdly, Duke has already been accomodating to the "new reality" and allows a variety of faiths, including muslims, to use the chapel and has even hired an Islamic chaplain.
 
Cryptic said:
- First, it is not a "university bell tower" per se. Rather, it is the bell tower of a Christian chapel.
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i missed your explanation telling us why it would have been wrong for the muslim students to have been summons to prayer from the bell tower

- Secondly, Duke was founded as a Christian religous college. So, not surprisingly, it contains both a Christian Chapel and bells apparently sound on Sundays.
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ok. now explain for us why it would have been wrong to use that bell tower to summons the muslim students to prayer on fridays

- Thirdly, Duke has already been accomodating to the "new reality" and allows a variety of faiths, including muslims, to use the chapel and has even hired an Islamic chaplain.
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and why did duke then back away from its agreement to allow the bell tower to be used on fridays to summons the muslim students to prayer
 
justabubba said:
i missed your explanation telling us why it would have been wrong for the muslim students to have been summons to prayer from the bell tower
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justabubba said:
ok. now explain for us why it would have been wrong to use that bell tower to summons the muslim students to prayer on fridays
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There is no mathematical "right" or "wrong" answer to this matter. For example, can you uhmmm..... "prove it is right?" The lack of mathematical answer moots your second point.
justabubba said:
and why did duke then back away from its agreement to allow the bell tower to be used on fridays to summons the muslim students to prayer
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As to your third point, I have a suspiscion that Duke, as a whole, never entered into the agreement to let them use the chapel bell tower. Rather, the decision was made by the "inter religous affairs coordinator".

My additional guess is that any future "religous coordination" that changes the current status quo will need to be presented to the governing board before approval.
 
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Cryptic said:
There is no mathematical right or wrong answer to this matter. For example, can you uhmmm..... "prove it is right?" This moots your second point.

As to your third point, I have a suspiscion that Duke, as a whole, never entered into the agreement to let them use the chapel bell tower. Rather, the decision was made by the "inter religous affairs coordinator".

My additional guess is that any future "religous coordination" that changes the current status quo will need to be presented to the governinng board before approved.
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but the reality is duke acceded to the PC position and now the anti-PC reich wing is delighted about it
 
justabubba said:
but the reality is duke acceded to the PC position and now the anti-PC reich wing is delighted about it
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That depends on your definition of "PC". I define "PC" as being lefitist in origin. The right wing equivelent would be "reactionary".
 
11Bravo said:
Saying someone is too stupid to get into Duke, isn't saying much. It's one of the hardest schools to get into in this country. Just FYI
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I also believe that it is one of the most costly as well.

soot said:
Nonsense.

I would hazard to guess that 98% of the backlash against the original plan came from folks who are too stupid and poor to ever attend Duke.
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This may well be accurate. Of course, 98% of the "occupier" crowd, who though probably very supportive of the belltower to minaret concept, could not get into Duke either academically or fiscally either.

Heck, Duke's Law school as a median LSAT score of 169 https://law.duke.edu/admis/classprofile/

My guess is that the vast majority of professed atheists and agnostics in the country cannot turn in that kind of score. They must be a pretty stupid bunch- right?
 
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Cryptic said:
That depends on your definition of "PC". I define "PC" as being lefitist in origin. The right wing equivelent would be "reactionary".
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i will not engage in a semantic quibble having little to do with the events at hand

the reality is duke moved in a direction favorable to the muslim students and then reverted to its prior position. a Politically Correct position, unless you believe that a pro-muslim position is the one that would be found dominant
 
Could argue bit unfair if bells can be used on Sunday but the Muslim call to pray is not allowed. But ehh...bells not as overt so don't have an issue with it, unless they are broadcasting other groups prayers/etc.

Still, as long as it's know what type of school Duke is, then you know what you are getting into. Why I looked at BYU before going "hell no."

To be honest though, and really doesn't matter but still, if this had been the Mormons or Hindus or Buddhists etc. People probably would not have cared in the slightest, which is the b.s. part for me.
 
Stevie Wonder could've seen the criticism coming.
 
Cryptic said:
Good move by Duke. Why it was even contemplated is beyond me.
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Ummmm...perhaps it had something to do with a private university giving students enrolled their the opportunity to exercise their First Amendment rights on the grounds of freedom of religion, right to peaceful assembly and freedom of (expression) speech more openly instead of being relegated to the campus basement for prayer services (unless, of course, that's where every other religious sect on campus does it). Just a thought...

Allowing one religion such a premiment status (were calls announcing the start of the Jewish sabbath also going to be broadcast? What about Hindu calls- providing there are such things) is clearly not uhmm..... "inclusive". Rather, it is divisive. The fact that Muslims were granted not only the ability to make such amplified calls, but were going to be allowed to do it from a Christian chapel is doubly insulting.

I do think the Muslims deserve credit for being assertive though.
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See section of my above comment in italics.

mbig said:
You'd really Have to "hype" it to call it "anti-semitism" since that term applies strictly to Prejudice against/hatred for Jews, Not Arabs and certainly not Muslims in general.
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While I get your point, I could see this issue getting blown way out of proportion especially in the wake of recent Islamic terrorism events in France. Even here in the U.S. anti-Islamic sentiment remain high. So, whether you call it anti-Semitism or anti-Islamic or anti-Muslim, the prejudicial views, fear and hatred are real.
 
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matchlight said:
The Muslim Students Association is a Muslim Brotherhood front group--the first one set up here, in fact. Its members can take their anti-American shariah and go straight to hell. I'm glad Duke pulled the plug on their effort to spread supremacist propaganda under the guise of legitimate religion. The First Amendment no more guarantees a right to promote shariah, a system of oppressive rules that is repugnant to all our laws, freedoms, and traditions, just because some Muslims believe in it as a matter of faith, than it has ever guaranteed a right to engage in polygamy, just because some Mormons have believed in it as a matter of faith.

Here is a very informative site that explains more about the MSA and other MB front groups:

A short course 16: Mapping the Muslim Brotherhood in America | Shariah: the Threat to America
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But isn't this the irony of our laws, cultures and values in America? We sit back and say, "Hey, I'm a private institution - be it a business or learning institution - I should be able to do pretty much whatever I want without government interference or public intrusion" and the one time said private institution attempts to assert its rights even on behalf of a specific religious sect it gets negative blow-back from it not necessarily from those who attend or even fund the school, but outside religious/political activist who see nothing but their religious ideology being tramped on and/or offended.

Granted, the fed never got involved in this matter but the religious-Right sure heavily influenced the university leadership's decision to reverse its decision by threatening to pull private funding.
 
Ockham said:
Perhaps maybe those who feel strongly about Islam should think about starting their own universities. That way, they can issue the call to prayer 5 times a day on their own campus without concern or repercussion.
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That is until someone learns about it and then calls on Christian religious activist to protest or threatens to withhold private funding. Then you'd be right in the same situation Duke finds itself in right now having to reverse your decision to allow students (of a particular religious sect) to openly exercise their First Amendment rights.
 
Cryptic said:
Good move by Duke. Why it was even contemplated is beyond me.

Allowing one religion such a premiment status (were calls announcing the start of the Jewish sabbath also going to be broadcast? What about Hindu calls- providing there are such things) is clearly not uhmm..... "inclusive". Rather, it is divisive. The fact that moslems were granted not only the ability to make such amplified calls, but were going to be allowed to do it from a Christian chapel is doubly insulting.

I do think the Muslims deserve credit for being assertive though.
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Wait a minute now...

Cryptic said:
- First, it is not a "university bell tower" per se. Rather, it is the bell tower of a Christian chapel.

- Secondly, Duke was founded as a Christian religious college. So, not surprisingly, it contains both a Christian Chapel and bells apparently sound on Sundays.

- Thirdly, Duke has already been accomodating to the "new reality" and allows a variety of faiths, including muslims, to use the chapel and has even hired an Islamic chaplain.
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So, if Christian student groups can use Duke's chapel bell to call Christians to prayer on Sundays, why is it prohibitive for Muslim student to use the same chapel bell to call Muslims students to prayer on Fridays?
 
justabubba said:
all those on the right suddenly applauding an abdication in favor of political conformity

such a consistently principled bunch
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All? All those on the right? Overgeneralize much?
 
Objective Voice said:
That is until someone learns about it and then calls on Christian religious activist to protest or threatens to withhold private funding.
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Well I'm sure there will be obsticals that need to overcome but activists, protests and having funding with held generally are not illegal. They'll have to deal with the same things everyone else has to deal with. C'est la vie.
Objective Voice said:
Then you'd be right in the same situation Duke finds itself in right now having to reverse your decision to allow students (of a particular religious sect) to openly exercise their First Amendment rights.
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Oh well. Life's a bitch.
 
Objective Voice said:
But isn't this the irony of our laws, cultures and values in America? We sit back and say, "Hey, I'm a private institution - be it a business or learning institution - I should be able to do pretty much whatever I want without government interference or public intrusion" and the one time said private institution attempts to assert its rights even on behalf of a specific religious sect it gets negative blow-back from it not necessarily from those who attend or even fund the school, but outside religious/political activist who see nothing but their religious ideology being tramped on and/or offended.

Granted, the fed never got involved in this matter but the religious-Right sure heavily influenced the university leadership's decision to reverse its decision by threatening to pull private funding.
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There are a number of campuses which have earned a reputation as hotbeds of Islamist activity. I suspect Duke may be one of them. But private institutions like colleges would not be free to do whatever they wanted, even if they didn't accept a nickel in federal funds. Lending material support to a terrorist organization, for example, is just as much a federal crime if done by a professor or official at a private college.

I support efforts by concerned Americans to resist and frustrate the efforts of Islamist groups to proselytize for the repugnant, thoroughly un-American code of shari'ah under the guise of the First Amendment right to free exercise of religion. These groups are as noxious as the German-American Bunds that were operating in this country as World War II broke out--dens of iniquity where all sorts of activity that threatens our national security is going on. Some people in these Muslim Brotherhood front groups have even been convicted of raising money and sending it to terrorist groups overseas under the pretext that it was charity for the poor. I saw one female from a radical Muslim group take the microphone during the Q&A period after a talk a few years ago by David Horowitz at UC Irvine. She began by attacking him and singing the praises of shari'ah and all things Islamist. She then urged everyone to attend, later that day on campus, a Nazi meeting on the menace of Jewry. I would like to see Congress pass laws restricting the ability of these groups to operate.
 
Objective Voice said:
Ummmm...perhaps it had something to do with a private university giving students enrolled their the opportunity to exercise their First Amendment rights on the grounds of freedom of religion, right to peaceful assembly and freedom of (expression) speech more openly instead of being relegated to the campus basement for prayer services (unless, of course, that's where every other religious sect on campus does it). Just a thought...
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No one was or is denying them freedom of religion, nor their freedom of expression, nor their rights to freedom of assembly.
 
justabubba said:
i will not engage in a semantic quibble having little to do with the events at hand

the reality is duke moved in a direction favorable to the muslim students and then reverted to its prior position. a Politically Correct position, unless you believe that a pro-muslim position is the one that would be found dominant
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A politically incorrect position would be that Islam has a history of anti-education, anti women, anti Gay and spreads ignorance and poverty wherever it appears. The promotion of ignorance should not be the policy of any serious school or University
 
Ockham said:
Well I'm sure there will be obsticals that need to overcome but activists, protests and having funding with held generally are not illegal.
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No one said it was. However, I am saying it's very hypercritical to be for one religious sect using the bell tower to announce prayer services but deny another religious sect the same usage bowing moreso to social pressures than standing up for equal rights under the law or even staying firm on moral grounds.

They'll have to deal with the same things everyone else has to deal with. C'est la vie.
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Unless you're of the "right" religion. Then it's okay.

Oh well. Life's a bitch.
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It sure is sometimes.
 
Objective Voice said:
No one said it was. However, I am saying it's very hypercritical to be for one religious sect using the bell tower to announce prayer services but deny another religious sect the same usage bowing moreso to social pressures than standing up for equal rights under the law or even staying firm on moral grounds.



Unless you're of the "right" religion. Then it's okay.



It sure is sometimes.
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I tend to agree with your general point - but lets face it, wouldn't it be wonderful if all religions were equal? But then reality steps in and we know that all religions are not equal, just like people's preferences, biases all add up to things being unequal. Part of me accepts that and another part says it's unfair, but that is the human condition. Shall we artificially try to create equality and make everyone mad or just accept humanity, even it's warts?
 
Grant said:
No one was or is denying them freedom of religion, nor their freedom of expression, nor their rights to freedom of assembly.
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Reading comprehension, big fella. I never said their First Amendment rights were being denied. I merely suggested that perhaps the reason Duke administrators granted Muslim students use of the bell tower was so that they could exercise their First Amendment rights more openly and I might say equally considering than Christian students reportedly have use of the bell tower to announce Sunday prayer services.

If you're going to allow it for one religious sect on campus, you should allow it for all religious groups who request such use in accordance with their religious tenants. Clearly, you're not going to allow every religious sacrament to take place, i.e., human or animal sacrifices, but I find nothing wrong with allowing a call to prayer from each religious sect to take place as long as such is done within reason/acceptable tolerances.
 
justabubba said:
share with us what would have been wrong for the student muslims at duke university to be summoned to prayer on fridays by appeal from the university bell tower


except pretend that they are being discriminated against by allowing another faith access to the bell tower used to summons Christian students to prayer on sundays

for a gang who so strongly and loudly object to anything PC, y'all sure got your panties in a wad over this matter, now celebrating when PC prevails
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I don't get my panties in a wad like you, and I know you have the whole misery loves company thing going. Sorry to disappoint.
 
Objective Voice said:
Reading comprehension, big fella. I never said their First Amendment rights were being denied. I merely suggested that perhaps the reason Duke administrators granted Muslim students use of the bell tower was so that they could exercise their First Amendment rights more openly and I might say equally considering than Christian students reportedly have use of the bell tower to announce Sunday prayer services.
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"More openly" and "equally" is not mentioned in the First Amendment.
If you're going to allow it for one religious sect on campus, you should allow it for all religious groups who request such use in accordance with their religious tenants.
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I don't see why. It is not a Muslims school.
Clearly, you're not going to allow every religious sacrament to take place, i.e., human or animal sacrifices, but I find nothing wrong with allowing a call to prayer from each religious sect to take place as long as such is done within reason/acceptable tolerances.
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Well there are those who disagree and I say good for them.
 
Grant said:
A politically incorrect position would be that Islam has a history of anti-education, anti women, anti Gay and spreads ignorance and poverty wherever it appears. The promotion of ignorance should not be the policy of any serious school or University
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insert 'evangelical Christianity' for 'islam' and get the same result
it is not the religion, it is some of the practitioners of religion who should be found abhorrent


there is nothing to indicate the muslim students at duke university have acted other than in an acceptable manner in the ways they practice their religion
 
justabubba said:
insert 'evangelical Christianity' for 'islam' and get the same result
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No, you wouldn't.
it is not the religion, it is some of the practitioners of religion who should be found abhorrent
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Well these Islamic practitioners are in the news a great deal for a variety of crimes against human rights. Do we really need another list of recent Islamic atrocities in order to make the point?
there is nothing to indicate the muslim students at duke university have acted other than in an acceptable manner in the ways they practice their religion
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Certainly, but they are part of a group which supports the discrimination of women, Gays, little girls receiving an education, public flogging or death for criticizing Islam, terrorism, and the list goes on.

Rather than making ridiculous comparisons between 'evangelical Christians' and Islam, wouldn't it be wiser to actually take a stand and say that this sort of behavior by Muslims is unacceptable and that Muslims should clean up there own act before any public celebration of their faith is accepted?
 
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