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Thread: Obama pushes broadband plan

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    Re: Obama pushes broadband plan

    Quote Originally Posted by AJiveMan View Post
    I just love how some people twist and spin the meaning of the constitution. See post # 307.
    For example.

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    Re: Obama pushes broadband plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    My position is that there is NOTHING wrong with lobbying or petitioning the government. You and every other citizen or business or industry or special interest group has that right. There was nothing wrong with internet providers petitioning legislators. The problem is if the legislators passed bad laws and that's what's in debate. Just because you pitch a tent outside your senator or representative's office and beseech him every chance you get to please, please, write a law to demand all registered repblicans get neutered for the good of the future of the country, you don't automatically get him writing it into a bill just because you asked for it or demanded it. If you don't like the laws, blame the legislators, not the lobbyists.
    So did the legislators pass a bad law in banning competition in those twenty states?

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    Re: Obama pushes broadband plan

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    Nope.
    Okay, then you need to clearly navigate these facts for me, then:

    1) You don't support the government preventing competition.
    2) You support the right of the internet providers to lobby the government into banning competition.
    3) The internet providers did, in fact, lobby the government to banning competition, which the states then subsequently legislated.
    4) Ergo, the government prevented competition.
    5) Yet you still stand by 1) and 2)

    Work that out for me.

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    Re: Obama pushes broadband plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    So did the legislators pass a bad law in banning competition in those twenty states?
    That's a judgement call and I don't know enough about the laws on those 20 states to make that call. My comments weren't about whether the laws were good or bad but about your errant assertions about lobbying. Go back and re-read if you forgot what we were talking about.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Obama pushes broadband plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    That's a judgement call and I don't know enough about the laws on those 20 states to make that call.
    The laws prevent local municipalities from creating their own isps. Now you know. Were those bad laws?

    My comments weren't about whether the laws were good or bad but about your errant assertions about lobbying.
    Your own words: "The problem is if the legislators passed bad laws and that's what's in debate." And so now I'm asking you: are these bad laws?

    Go back and re-read if you forgot what we were talking about.
    I think in your efforts in avoiding making judgments and thus avoiding how your positions may be applicable to Obama's proposal, it may be you who forgot what you yourself wrote, as demonstrated above. You took an indefensible position and now you're tangling yourself up in knots. It was an interesting mental exercise, but you're not doing so hot.

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    Re: Obama pushes broadband plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    The laws prevent local municipalities from creating their own isps. Now you know. Were those bad laws?



    Your own words: "The problem is if the legislators passed bad laws and that's what's in debate." And so now I'm asking you: are these bad laws?



    I think in your efforts in avoiding making judgments and thus avoiding how your positions may be applicable to Obama's proposal, it may be you who forgot what you yourself wrote, as demonstrated above. You took an indefensible position and now you're tangling yourself up in knots. It was an interesting mental exercise, but you're not doing so hot.
    Unlike you, I don't make judgement calls without hearing ALL the arguments from both sides and giving thought to all the arguments. Without knowing what the legislators were trying to accomplish, I won't say it's good or bad.

    If it is actually what you say and just a sinister plot to prevent competition, I'd agree it's bad but I don't think your version is the unimpeachable truth and I don't care enough to research it, myself.

    I only clicked on this thread out of curiosity and responded to the first stupid assertion I saw. It just happened to be yours.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Obama pushes broadband plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    Unlike you, I don't make judgement calls without hearing ALL the arguments from both sides and giving thought to all the arguments. Without knowing what the legislators were trying to accomplish, I won't say it's good or bad.
    The laws were made via lobbying by internet providers to ban competition....and you don't know what the legislators were trying to accomplish? I know you're trying to avoid the obvious in an attempt to avoid looking silly, but your evasion isn't just silly. It's sad.

    If it is actually what you say and just a sinister plot to prevent competition, I'd agree it's bad but I don't think your version is the unimpeachable truth and I don't care enough to research it, myself.
    And if you had to guess, what would be the motive of a corporation for pushing the illegalization of competition? Just guess.

    I only clicked on this thread out of curiosity and responded to the first stupid assertion I saw. It just happened to be yours.
    This was your first contribution to the thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    If a state or local government wants to supply broadband to it's citizens, the decision is being made at the level where it should be made, by the people on a state and local level. At this point, I don't see an issue and there's nothing wrong with Obama "looking into it". Now if he proposes something that actually does trample the rights of people or is an overstep of federal authority, we can just wait until there's something beyond speculation to flog mercilessly.
    You didn't respond to me until three posts later, in which you confessed you had done no research and given no thought to nations that had attempted the government you liked best. It's a lot like the rest of your posts in this thread, actually: unresearched, ill though-out and lazy, in that you can't even be bothered to click back to find your original motivation for entering the discussion in the first place. But now you've buried yourself so deep in one side that you can't even allow yourself to guess why a corporation would lobby to ban competition for itself without your entire position unraveling. If I had to guess, I'd say you were wishing you had stopped at that first post when you wrote something decently reasonable.

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    Obama pushes broadband plan

    You really take it hard when someone debunks your falsehoods, don't you? Sorry, Cardinal, but when I see complete bullcrap like your idiotic assertion that supporting the rights of lobbyists to lobby is to applaud laws that prevent competition, I have to call it.

    You got caught busted for "just sayin' stuff". Get over it. If you don't like getting busted for it, don't say stuff you know is bullcrap.
    Last edited by Papa bull; 01-21-15 at 08:26 PM.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Obama pushes broadband plan

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    Here it comes, the first roadblock in the internet, setup by the federal govt. And a violation of states rights. The govt has no power to control personal communications, certainly not to tell cities that they cant make laws prohibiting govts from running their own ISPs. And Obama wants to make YOU pay more taxes for it.

    The result, much like with sewage, garbage, electricity, will be to drive private options out of business since govt can compete unfairly.



    Obama pushes broadband plan, critics see
    I see. Since the telecom companies couldn't stop it through the courts, they've paid politicians to legislate their competition away. Note that telecom companies can still compete in any market. What they want is to stop anyone else, including LOCAL govts (who don't have tons of money) from entering the fray and offering services.

    What Obama seeks to do (which is merely ask the FCC to regulate this) is a good thing.

    Lafayette, Louisiana did this. It provides the ONLY way for a citizen to get decent, reasonable cost internet. It's not cheap. And it's not the fastest. But it's something that gives customers a choice. AT&T and others sued the sh___ out of the city, ultimately losing.

    What we have right now is a near monopoly on internet services. We have Time Warner/Comcast (when the merger is approved) and AT&T/DirecTV, with Verizon pulling up the rear. Verizon and TW/Comcast don't operate in the same areas. So any given area has two choices: TW/Comcast or Verizon, on the one hand, or one of those and AT&T on the other hand.

    The cost to enter a market is prohibitive for companies, so these companies operate almost exclusively within given areas. Because of that, cost is exorbitant, service is slow and sloppy, and caps are increasingly used so that customers are charged internet usage like a utility. If you don't know what your bill is supposed to be, it's hard to catch fraudulent charges, something that AT&T does (I have personal experience with that, and it's being investigated by the govt for that currently).

    A local govt makes a profit on the service, but is more concerned about its citizens getting service it pays for, unlike companies. Why shouldn't a local govt get a profit on a service that almost all its citizens use? The other companies can still offer their services. All they have to do is compete by offering good service at reasonable cost. Easy.

    Here in Dallas, the city offers electricity. But we're unregulated, so we can also cost shop and sign contracts for lower rates. Deregulation. Which is what Republicans like, right? It works. We have both a government entity AND corporations competing for our business.

    In my area we have Time Warner and AT&T. AT&T has a cap. AT&T includes fraudulent charges on its bills, which you must catch (if you can). You can't get wireless service from Time Warner unless you buy one of the most expensive speeds. There is no rational reason for that, except Time Warner wants to fleece you.

    AT&T requires you to use its equipment, for which it charges you a monthly fee.

    It's a racket. Telecom companies are the most hated in the country, for a reason.

    It's getting to where people NEED the internet to conduct business and live a middle class or better life in many communities in our country. It's how you pay bills, communicate with your ins. co., buy insurance, shop, look up your utility and credit card and bank accounts, job hunt, remote in to your office e-mail, etc.

    Lafayette, Louisiana was very brave and innovative to do what it did. It seems to be working well. There's no reason it shouldn't provide internet services to its citizens, just like it provides water and gas and electricity.
    Last edited by JumpinJack; 01-21-15 at 08:39 PM.
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    Re: Obama pushes broadband plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    You really take it hard when someone debunks your falsehoods, don't you? Sorry, Cardinal, but when I see complete bullcrap like your idiotic assertion that supporting the rights of lobbyists to lobby is to applaud laws that prevent competition, I have to call it.

    You got caught busted for "just sayin' stuff". Get over it. If you don't like getting busted for it, don't say stuff you know is bullcrap.
    Since I've never argued about whether or not the isps had the right to lobby, you've reduced yourself to falsehoods. How much further can you drop? But fine, since you want to make this about rights, then it's the Federal Government's right to overturn those state laws. Bam, problem solved.

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