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Thread: Church fires unwed pregant employee

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    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Demanding someone get married on their timescale is maybe not the most understanding position to take. For folk who claim love, understanding, and forgiveness this act is particularly cold and cruel. Well within their rights though. But that didn't change the heartless manner they acted in.
    They didn't demand that she get married, she had already made that decision. What they asked for was a wedding date and gave her a deadline to set it, not a deadline to get married. She could have told them January 19, 2035 and she would have met their request, but she chose to not set a date. How tough is it to choose a wedding date??
    Our nation has not always lived up to its ideals, yet those ideals have never ceased to guide us. They expose our flaws, and lead us to mend them. We are the beneficiaries of the work of the generations before us and it is each generation's responsibility to continue that work. - Laura Bush

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    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    I think it would simply based on any ethics or appearance argument . . . if others arent held to that regard then why anybody else
    and i followed that case a little but i dont remember it
    wasnt it a private school and there was a contract? or was that some other case
    Yes, it was a private school, and they had a code of conduct contract.

    But if memory serves me right, the entire case, both pro and con, was argued from the "is the teacher a minister?" approach. Maybe some code of conduct contract obligations cant be applied to non ministers?

    Come to think of it, one of the stipulations in the contract said that disputes in the school must be resolved via the internal Christian community, not external judicial sources. She did not follow that and was fired. Maybe, such a provision could apply only to ministers?
    Last edited by Cryptic; 01-14-15 at 04:02 PM.

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    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    They didn't demand that she get married, she had already made that decision. What they asked for was a wedding date and gave her a deadline to set it, not a deadline to get married. She could have told them January 19, 2035 and she would have met their request, but she chose to not set a date. How tough is it to choose a wedding date??
    So would the church accept a known liar (which there is actually a commandment against lying) rather than a known fornicator? If she couldn't decide on a date, why pretend or lie that she did, wouldn't that have also broken whatever moral standards they had?
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    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    They didn't demand that she get married, she had already made that decision. What they asked for was a wedding date and gave her a deadline to set it, not a deadline to get married. She could have told them January 19, 2035 and she would have met their request, but she chose to not set a date. How tough is it to choose a wedding date??
    Who knows? I'm not privy to her personal life, so I don't know those details. Perchance there was something that made it untenable at that exact moment.
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    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    Yes, it was a private school, and they had a code of conduct contract. But if memory serves me right, the entire case, both pro and con, was argued from the "is the teacher a minister?" approach. Maybe some code of conduct contract obligations cant be applied to non ministers?
    well i honestly cant remember the "legality" of it

    but in my OPINION . . . if its a private school and there was contract with code of contract she violated i personally dont support it being violated

    contracts are contracts, i mean like everything you cant sign a contract to be beaten to death and NOTHING happens hahaha but contracts are very strong legally and rules of contract apply to everybody who signes them. We see this every day with teachers, athletes, everyday white collar and blue collar employees etc

    IMO the choice is made when you decided to take the job with the code of conduct . . ..
    now if the code/contract wasn't signed with that or it "magically" appeared one day or was "rewritten" then id be back on thier side

    so many scenarios, its fun talking about though but for this case i cant decided and give my opinion yet until i know more
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    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by americanwoman View Post
    So would the church accept a known liar (which there is actually a commandment against lying) rather than a known fornicator? If she couldn't decide on a date, why pretend or lie that she did, wouldn't that have also broken whatever moral standards they had?
    The standard they are enforcing is what is listed in their handbook. so you would have to know what is being cited there to be able to answer such a question.

    I never said anything about lying about the date, I stated that she could have set a date as far out as she wanted as long as she set date. The person I was replying to was trying to make it sound like the church was forcing her to get married on their timeline and that wasn't the case. They simply asked for a wedding date and gave her a timeline for that. An objective look at the situation would show that to be a pretty reasonable compromise, considering that she had already violated the terms of her employment and the church had every right to fire her for it. They chose instead to offer a compromise that allowed her to keep her job and get married on her schedule. All she needed to do was set a wedding date and she failed to do so.
    Our nation has not always lived up to its ideals, yet those ideals have never ceased to guide us. They expose our flaws, and lead us to mend them. We are the beneficiaries of the work of the generations before us and it is each generation's responsibility to continue that work. - Laura Bush

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    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    I wish it were settled, but I dont think it is. For example, the progressives could well argue that making a non minister comply with a particular guideline (no preganancies outside of marriage) is not constitutional.
    it has been argued before and failed.
    a janitor was fired from cleaning a Mormon church because he wasn't part of the church.

    The Supreme Court agreed that the statutory exemption applied to the building custodian and that firing him for his religious beliefs was therefore lawful
    Corporation of the Presiding Bishop v. Amos

    Hosanna-Tabor Evangelical Lutheran Church and School v. EEOC
    dismissed by the supreme court as well.

    She is a minister in the church organization and has to follow the same guidelines.

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    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin View Post
    yet that is exactly what they are doing and there is currently a lawsuit in the works that the EEOC is not giving employers enough time to work out a deal and or correct the issue.
    in this case it was a mining company.

    the EEOC has been tried against church's and church organizations and they fail every time.
    I'm sorry, in what case was it a mining company? As for filing cases against churches...are you saying they shouldn't? In Seattle they filed a case where a woman was sexually harassed at an Episcopal Church. Are you saying they should of tried that case? As far as not giving employers enough time to work out a deal, they first try to settle the claim and if they can't they take it to court.

    My kids attended a church day care. I think they go as little as 2-3 years old. they sing church songs and everything else and do bible stories along with learning colors and shapes etc ...
    That's why I distinguished between day cares that take care of infants and toddlers...

    most people working at a church have to sign some kind of statement of faith and that they will live by the church by laws.
    getting pregnant outside of a marriage and not getting married in a timely fashion could violate church law.
    Statements supplant laws. Firing for being pregnant is discriminatory. The courts have stated there are minsterial exclusions when it comes to church. Is the woman in a ministerial duty? Signing a handbook or statement though doesn't give an employer carte blanche when it comes to discrimination.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Who knows? I'm not privy to her personal life, so I don't know those details. Perchance there was something that made it untenable at that exact moment.
    Or maybe she simply chose not to and then accuse the church of being the bad guys for asking that she follow the employment standards she agreed to and then chose not to follow. There is so much that is unknown, but you'll condemn the church with limited information and then refuse to apply anything even remotely close to the same standard when it comes to the woman.

    Church: I don't have all the details, but I'll condemn them nonetheless.
    Woman: I don't have all the details, but I'll give her a leeway I possibly can.

    It's little thing called "bigotry".
    Our nation has not always lived up to its ideals, yet those ideals have never ceased to guide us. They expose our flaws, and lead us to mend them. We are the beneficiaries of the work of the generations before us and it is each generation's responsibility to continue that work. - Laura Bush

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    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    I'm sorry, in what case was it a mining company? As for filing cases against churches...are you saying they shouldn't? In Seattle they filed a case where a woman was sexually harassed at an Episcopal Church. Are you saying they should of tried that case? As far as not giving employers enough time to work out a deal, they first try to settle the claim and if they can't they take it to court.


    That's why I distinguished between day cares that take care of infants and toddlers...



    Statements supplant laws. Firing for being pregnant is discriminatory. The courts have stated there are minsterial exclusions when it comes to church. Is the woman in a ministerial duty? Signing a handbook or statement though doesn't give an employer carte blanche when it comes to discrimination.
    She wasn't fired for being pregnant, she was fired for not setting a wedding date on the timeline that the church asked for. GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT!!!!
    Our nation has not always lived up to its ideals, yet those ideals have never ceased to guide us. They expose our flaws, and lead us to mend them. We are the beneficiaries of the work of the generations before us and it is each generation's responsibility to continue that work. - Laura Bush

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