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Thread: Church fires unwed pregant employee

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    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    the OP mentions a day care though, a day care has squat to do with religion and the church
    if the daycare is in the church and used during services etc then the church is good
    if its a separate thing then they over stepped and i hope she sues
    My impression is that the day care is in the church. Many large churches have these and my wife has worked at one and our children have gone to several.

    Even if the day care is in the church, some justices could well rule her way. In Tabor Lutheran vs EEOC, the more liberal justices said the ministerial exemption" that churches enjoy should only apply to employees with clear religous or at least quasi religous roles. Conservative justices implied the exemption was for any employee.

    That being said, my guess is that she will lose at SCOTUS. The conservative justices think any employee should be covered. Even some of the liberal ones will either want to err on the side of the first amendment, or wont want to get bogged down in debates if a day care worker is, or is not a religous role. For example, what if whe reads childrens' bible books as part of her duties, would that make her a "minsiter" etc etc.

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    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    I pointed that out earlier but it also depends on if the protection of religious beliefs are affected.

    Then it becomes an issue of which rights take precedence. And pregnancy is not protected by the Const.
    I dunno if that's simple. There's a reason the Supreme Court when forced to decide between discrimination vs religion went on the side of religion but chose to specify it was "ministerial positions" and focused on the ability of churches to freely pick their clergy. If religion took precedence over discrimination by the church as an employer they wouldn't of stated that their ruling was an exception. If they ran a hospital should they be able to fire a pregnant doctor? How about a pregnant janitor at that hospital? How about the groundskeeper at the church?
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    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    My impression is that the day care is in the church. Many large churches have these and my wife has worked at one and our children have gone to several.

    Even if the day care is in the church, some justices could well rule her way. In Tabor Lutheran vs EEOC, the more liberal justices said the ministerial exemption" that churches enjoy should only apply to employees with clear religous or at least quasi religous roles. Conservative justices implied the exemption was for any employee.

    That being said, my guess is that she will loose simply because some justices think any employee should be covered and some of the liberal ones will either want to err on the side of the first amendment, or wont want to get bogged down in debates if a day care worker is, or is not a religous function. For example, what if whe reads childrens' bible books as part of her duties, would that make her a "minsiter" etc etc.
    Where are you getting the information saying that any of the justices say it should apply to all employees? The only thing I've read is from Justice Thomas stating of what constitutes a minister should be up to the religious organization. No other judge signed on to that.
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    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    Should she have gotten an abortion to save her job?
    I'll bet you think so.
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    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    1.)My impression is that the day care is in the church. Many large churches have these and my wife has worked at one and our children have gone to several.
    2.)Even if the day care is in the church, some justices could well rule her way. In Tabor Lutheran vs EEOC, the more liberal justices said the ministerial exemption" that churches enjoy should only apply to employees with clear religous or at least quasi religous roles. Conservative justices implied the exemption was for any employee.
    3.)That being said, my guess is that she will lose at SCOTUS. The conservative justices think any employee should be covered. Even some of the liberal ones will either want to err on the side of the first amendment, or wont want to get bogged down in debates if a day care worker is, or is not a religous role. For example, what if whe reads childrens' bible books as part of her duties, would that make her a "minsiter" etc etc.
    1.) you maybe 100% right, i simply dont know
    2.) im doubtful of that if its only used for church events . . if it takes in all outside business then i agree with you
    3.) well like i said id have to know more before i have an opinion because i could easily create one in my head that i think SCOTUS would rule in her favor

    like i said, in church, only for church memebers, during church events and there was an employee handbook that she signed with conduct code . . .she loses big and should

    out side of the church, a business that is just owned/ran by the church and its open to all people and there was no contract with rules of conduct based on single moms . . . then she wins big IMO and should

    i just need more to make an opinon
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    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    How awesome would it be if she was impregnated by the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ and they fired her for it?

    The church is one of the most idiotic organizations on the planet.
    Ted Cruz is the dumbest person alive.

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    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    I think the ministerial angle is an interesting one because it does allow churches an exception to employment discrimination laws but does that include daycare workers? It seems like when the court provided the exemption it was based on someone actually being a minister.
    The big case in this issue is Tabor Lutheran vs EEOC (teacher firing). The Obama administration lost 9-0. But, the Obama administration also wanted to end the ministerial exemption- even for actual ministers. This frightned even Soto Mayor, and may have led to the 9-0 beat down.

    Anyways....

    All the justices (at least on that day), all agreed that a teacher who on occasion led prayers, was a minister. Conservative justices implied that almost all employees can be considered ministers in one way or another. Liberal justices said that it would not apply to almost every position.

    As to whether or not a day care worker is a ministry, I think it is. Such workers represent the teachings of the church to children. There is also a practical aspect in saying that they are. For example, would a day care would that is required to explain scripture verses be a "minister"? If so, then alot of churches, mosques and temples will just add this requirement for their employees.

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    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Yup, and one where these Christians could have shown some love and forgiveness, but didn't. Instead to y threw her and her unborn kid onto the street. That was their choice. I didn't say they couldn't, its just interesting how cold and cruel some Christians can be.
    They asked her to set a date, not get married NOW, just set a date. They gave her a set time to do so and she failed to meet that timeline. Sounds to me like the church was pretty understanding and offered a simple way of keeping her job that showed flexibility in the rules and empathy to her situation. She failed to meet their requests per the handbook the church states she signed. The church wasn't cold and cruel they simply set a simple standard and asked her to meet that standard as part of her employment requirement.
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    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    Where are you getting the information saying that any of the justices say it should apply to all employees? The only thing I've read is from Justice Thomas stating of what constitutes a minister should be up to the religious organization. No other judge signed on to that.
    Well, Thomas for starters. If a church can deem any position to be "ministerial", then it is the same as stating that all positions at a church are potentially covered by the exemption (if a particular church so wishes).

    Scalia probably agrees with Thomas.
    Last edited by Cryptic; 01-14-15 at 03:38 PM.

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    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by whysoserious View Post
    How awesome would it be if she was impregnated by the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ and they fired her for it?

    The church is one of the most idiotic organizations on the planet.
    funny is funny


    and THAT is funny LMAO
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