Page 14 of 18 FirstFirst ... 41213141516 ... LastLast
Results 131 to 140 of 179

Thread: Church fires unwed pregant employee

  1. #131
    Angry Former GOP Voter
    Fiddytree's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:35 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    25,653

    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    My opinion depends on the nature of the day care center. If it is operated separately from the church, gets any government funding, and/or does not include any religious practices or teachings as part of its operation they should not be allowed to fire her.
    I believe that's already a requirement if they receive such funding. Religious organizations that receive government funding have to keep those services physically separate from ordinary religiously-based services they provide and adhere to non-discriminatory practices whilst operating such governmentally-funded services.

    That being said, it does not appear that this is relevant.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 01-15-15 at 12:32 AM.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  2. #132
    Guru

    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:27 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    3,899

    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by Napoleon View Post
    Tabor was a pretty cut and dry case. The teacher in question sought and earned a vocational diploma, was formally recognized and titled as a minister of the Lutheran Church, claimed and received benefits reserved for ministers, taught a religion course, and perhaps most important referred to herself as a minister during and after her employment. There was therefore zero doubt that the Lutheran Church's classification of her as a minister was appropriate. The Herx case is completely opposite of that.
    I dont think so....

    The teacher in question only gave token religous instruction several times a year in the form of leading prayers and possibly offerning brief explanations of scripture passages.

    In addition, the Missouri Synod does not have female ministers and the school in question was run by them. Therefore, it is highly unlikely she referred to herself as an actual minister while at the school (to do so would probably have led to another conduct violation).
    Last edited by Cryptic; 01-15-15 at 12:33 AM.

  3. #133
    Sewer Rat
    Risky Thicket's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:12 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    23,802

    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    It is a tough call, but the girl cannot really work for a religious organization, while blatantly flaunting religious law in public.
    Sharia law?










    "When Faith preaches Hate, Blessed are the Doubters." - Amin Maalouf

    When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one individual who perceives a solution and is willing to take command. Very often, that person is crazy. ~Dave Barry



  4. #134
    Guru

    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Columbus, OH
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:26 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    4,482

    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    I dont think so....

    The teacher in question only gave token religous instruction several times a year in the form of leading prayers and possibly offerning brief explanations of scripture passages.

    In addition, the Missouri Synod does not have female ministers and the school in question was run by them. Therefore, it is highly unlikely she referred to herself as an actual minister while at the school (to do so would probably have led to another conduct violation).
    I think a lot of people have misconceptions about the background of the Hosanna-Tabor case. So, lets start with how they classify their teachers as noted in the decision:

    The Synod classifies teachers into two categories: “called” and “lay.” “Called” teachers are regarded as having been called to their vocation by God through a congregation. To be eligible to receive a call from a congregation, a teacher must satisfy certain academic requirements. One way of doing so is by completing a “colloquy” program at a Lutheran college or university. The program requires candidates to take eight courses of theological study, obtain the endorsement of their local Synod district, and pass an oral examination by a faculty committee. A teacher who meets these requirements may be called by a congregation. Once called, a teacher receives the formal title “Minister of Religion, Commissioned.”

    That is what Cheryl Perich (the teacher) did. She received her diploma of vocation, was granted the title of Minister of Religion, her duties were also expanded to include teaching a religion course 4 days per week and leading chapel services twice per year, both parties referred to her as a minister, and she applied for and received benefits reserved for ministers. She was a minister, literally, and by any conventional meaning of the term. The outcome of the case probably would have been different absent those things.
    Last edited by Napoleon; 01-15-15 at 01:13 AM.

  5. #135
    Sewer Rat
    Risky Thicket's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:12 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    23,802

    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    My opinion depends on the nature of the day care center. If it is operated separately from the church, gets any government funding, and/or does not include any religious practices or teachings as part of its operation they should not be allowed to fire her.
    It should be that way, I agree. However, religious organizations, even if they receive federal money are exempt from the Americans with Disabilities Act. Churches and mosques can probably skate on firing women for violating religious law. Anything considered deviant or immoral by strict interpretation of Christian/Muslim religious law is likely fair game.

    Regardless, I find it all rather ironic. Long ago I was involved in a discussion among a small group of people that included a learned and well respected Roman Catholic priest. A lady in the group expressed her offense of someone she saw taking Holy Communion. The "offender" was apparently not a Catholic and was visiting a Catholic relative.

    The priest asked who in the group had not sinned. Of course no one raised their hand. Then he said, "Church is for sinners, all sinners. It is where we go to find the strength to avoid sin. It is where we go to ask for forgiveness. It is among each other that we find the strength to continue trying to live as Jesus teaches us. We cannot judge any person who finds their way to mass. We can only know that each of us struggles. On this earth there has only been one person who didn't need to be in church."

    He was a wise priest. He was an old priest. I don't know that they make many like that anymore. I long ago left the faith over the kind of crap that happened in the OP.










    "When Faith preaches Hate, Blessed are the Doubters." - Amin Maalouf

    When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one individual who perceives a solution and is willing to take command. Very often, that person is crazy. ~Dave Barry



  6. #136
    He's the most tip top
    Top Cat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:23 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    22,280

    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    If legal action is taken, this one could well go to the Supreme Court:

    Mom-to-be claims she was fired from Baptist church for not scheduling wedding date | Fox News

    Earlier, SCOTUS rebuked Obama's attempts to have these terminations automatically reviewable by the government 9-0 (Tabor Lutheran vs EEOC). But, some justices also said the ministerial exemption, though broad, is not all encompassing. They then welcomed further cases.

    In this case, the woman is a day care worker, a position that may, or may not be considered "ministerial". In my opinion, if one accepts employment of any kind at a non profit (church, mosque, temple, PETA, etc), you play by their rules, or you dont play there.

    .
    You gotta love right wing whack job churches. They don't know if they are coming or going. The woman doesn't get an abortion and they still fire her. I'm feeling the right wing religious compassion, are you?

    You can't make this **** up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    You have no empirical evidence backing up your false assertion. You are simply conjecturing based on a whim...
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye10 View Post
    Or maybe "We now understand why women provoke men into hitting them".
    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    . Losing insurance does not mean losing healthcare. .

  7. #137
    Sage
    faithful_servant's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Beautiful Central Oregon
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:37 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    10,682

    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    So her pregnancy has nothing to do with the firing? They just arbitrarily tell employees when they should get married to their boyfriend/girlfriend?
    The pregnancy was what brought up the issue, but the churches compromise on it was to ask her for a wedding date. She was already going to get married, they just wanted a date. A simple compromise to a complex problem that she couldn't handle.
    Our nation has not always lived up to its ideals, yet those ideals have never ceased to guide us. They expose our flaws, and lead us to mend them. We are the beneficiaries of the work of the generations before us and it is each generation's responsibility to continue that work. - Laura Bush

  8. #138
    Guru

    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:27 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    3,899

    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by Napoleon View Post
    I think a lot of people have misconceptions about the background of the Hosanna-Tabor case. So, lets start with how they classify their teachers as noted in the decision:

    The Synod classifies teachers into two categories: “called” and “lay.” “Called” teachers are regarded as having been called to their vocation by God through a congregation. To be eligible to receive a call from a congregation, a teacher must satisfy certain academic requirements. One way of doing so is by completing a “colloquy” program at a Lutheran college or university. The program requires candidates to take eight courses of theological study, obtain the endorsement of their local Synod district, and pass an oral examination by a faculty committee. A teacher who meets these requirements may be called by a congregation. Once called, a teacher receives the formal title “Minister of Religion, Commissioned.”

    That is what Cheryl Perich (the teacher) did. She received her diploma of vocation, was granted the title of Minister of Religion, her duties were also expanded to include teaching a religion course 4 days per week and leading chapel services twice per year, both parties referred to her as a minister, and she applied for and received benefits reserved for ministers. She was a minister, literally, and by any conventional meaning of the term. The outcome of the case probably would have been different absent those things.
    Ok, good point, she did teach a religion class. As to the status that a called teacher is a minister and that she fullfilled distinct duties as a called teacher, things get blurry.

    The Missouri synod emphasizes that being a confirmed minsiter ala a called teacher is distinctly different and does not convey the same authority as a pastoral minister. Likewise, non lutheran and lay teachers at that school also taught religious classes at the school and also led prayers. Thus, there are good indications that at the school in question, her status as a called teacher was largely symbolic.

    Here is a commentary on how broad the court is willing to define a minister:

    As soon as the denomination makes its point that it counts an employee as a “minister,” within its internal definition, that is probably the end of the case.
    http://www.scotusblog.com/2012/01/op...ial-exception/

    Thus, a minister is anybody that the church designates as one. Though this designation might have to be made in advance, the "minister" does not apparently need to be proclaimed one via a ceremony, or have special religous duties.


    Quote Originally Posted by Risky Thicket View Post
    It should be that way, I agree. However, religious organizations, even if they receive federal money are exempt from the Americans with Disabilities Act. Churches and mosques can probably skate on firing women for violating religious law. Anything considered deviant or immoral by strict interpretation of Christian/Muslim religious law is likely fair game.

    Regardless, I find it all rather ironic. Long ago I was involved in a discussion among a small group of people that included a learned and well respected Roman Catholic priest. A lady in the group expressed her offense of someone she saw taking Holy Communion. The "offender" was apparently not a Catholic and was visiting a Catholic relative.

    The priest asked who in the group had not sinned. Of course no one raised their hand. Then he said, "Church is for sinners, all sinners. It is where we go to find the strength to avoid sin. It is where we go to ask for forgiveness. It is among each other that we find the strength to continue trying to live as Jesus teaches us. We cannot judge any person who finds their way to mass. We can only know that each of us struggles. On this earth there has only been one person who didn't need to be in church."

    He was a wise priest. He was an old priest. I don't know that they make many like that anymore. I long ago left the faith over the kind of crap that happened in the OP.
    Was the priest affirming the non catholic who took communion, or was he saying not to make a big deal about an event that had already occurred? Jesus also forgave the woman caught in adultery. At the same time, he did not affirm her actions, and did not proclaim that her actions were not sinful.

    I have a feeling that your definition of "wise priest" is:

    Wise priest (n): A priest who affirms my values is wise. Those who do not affirm my values cant be wise because then they would affirm my values... .
    Last edited by Cryptic; 01-15-15 at 12:36 PM.

  9. #139
    Outer space potato man

    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:09 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    51,742

    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    There are. Forgiveness doesn't imply you can keep on with the behavior you're asking forgiveness for.
    Right, so if she had additional children out of wedlock that would be relevant.

    Unless you think an abortion is the way to forgiveness, I mean. "Being pregnant" isn't a sin, right?
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

  10. #140
    Sage

    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:47 PM
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    43,282

    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by SlevinKelevra View Post
    the wat?
    Maybe you might want to read up on it. Wikipedia is only a starting point, but gee. First steps and all that.
    Religious law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Page 14 of 18 FirstFirst ... 41213141516 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •