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Thread: Church fires unwed pregant employee

  1. #121
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    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by Texmex View Post
    This will serve as an example to these children of how compassionate the church is toward the unfortunate among us. They will learn that good Christians often say one thing and do another.
    No it won't, and there is absolutely no indication that this woman is "unfortunate". With an unmarried and pregnant teacher that last is precisely what they will be taught.

  2. #122
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    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by Texmex View Post
    I was a member of the church for decades. I can do without any BS from message board preachers. Some of the most right-wing nutjobs I have encountered is in the church. Like I said, they preach one thing and do another.
    Remove the beam from your own eye, then we'll talk.

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    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin View Post
    when the judicial system starts telling church who they can and can't hire and fire they start to violate the 1st amendment.
    she violated the church's morality clause more than likely. she can be terminated. there is already precedent set on this. if the judges follow the past the church wins. in Mrs. Herx case it was thrown out over a disability. also the judge screwed up. she violated an firm belief of the church she was teaching for.
    almost all catholic schools have some sort of religious note on them. and teachers sign agreements that they will uphold the tenants of the church in most cases.
    The Supreme Court acknowledged that religious employers have broad authority to define their employees as ministers but it also very clearly noted that it is not absolute. The judge in the Herx case correctly interpreted and applied the Hossanna-Tabor decision. A religious employer cannot reclassify a former employee as a minister as a defense. An employee isn't a minister for the purposes of the ministerial exception just because a religious employer says so; that classification must be evaluated and tested on a case-by-case basis when used as a defense for discriminatory hiring/firing practices.
    Last edited by Napoleon; 01-14-15 at 09:57 PM.

  4. #124
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    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by Napoleon View Post
    I think SCOTUS would side with the teacher in this case particularly since there was no evidence that the Diocese regarded Mrs. Herx's position at the school as ministerial prior to the lawsuit and overwhelming evidence that it did not. This case exemplifies the abuse of the ministerial exception by religious employers.
    I would not be so sure.

    Even the liberal justices in the Mount Tabor Lutheran vs EEOC (also a fired secular subject teacher with very nominal religous duties) stated that the term "minister" is to be broady defined- though not absolute. They then proceeded to rule 9-0 against the teacher.

    At the end of the day, I think even the progressive justices of SCOTUS is going to err on the side of the First Amendment for two reasons:

    - Practical (Rule against us? OK, in the future every employee at this church or mosque will have a religous function of some sort)
    - Philosophical reasons (churches, temples, etc, must be free to select their own represenatives for the First to have real meaning).

  5. #125
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    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    Your characterization of reality is a bit skewed. She wasn't just thrown out one day. She KNEW the rules, before she got pregnant. She KNEW a decision to go it alone and not get married would result in losing her job. This was a situation entirely of her own making.


    Concur, but OTOH...


    Getting married to the babydaddy isn't necessarily always the right thing to do. I am very traditional and it is hard for me to admit that... but if the babydaddy is a meth-head couch potato living off disability in his parent's garage, she would do better to run away screaming than marry him... and maybe the church ought to exercise a smidge more compassion and a smidge less judgmentalism in such a case. JM0.02

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  6. #126
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    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post


    Getting married to the babydaddy isn't necessarily always the right thing to do. I am very traditional and it is hard for me to admit that... but if the babydaddy is a meth-head couch potato living off disability in his parent's garage, she would do better to run away screaming than marry him...
    I tend to agree with CB, IF she was aware of this ahead of the fact, and had a legal agreement of some kind to that effect.
    That being said, and this is off topic, but your post reminded me of it. My granddaughters are ages 7 and 10 now, and they were here last weekend, and watching one of their "regular" television programs, on one of the kid tv channels. I happened to be walking by during a particular segment of the program they were watching, when I noticed that the subject of discussion on the program was "baby-daddy". I was very disheartened that the concept itself has become so casually normal.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
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    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    I think it's fair for the church to fire her. I believe they are within their rights as a religious institution, but I think it's wrong on a personal level. It is frustrating to see a group of people so committed to pro life values also play a role in stigmatizing and shaming unwed girls for conceiving. If the girl got an abortion, she could have kept her job and nobody would know.

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    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    I would not be so sure.

    Even the liberal justices in the Mount Tabor Lutheran vs EEOC (also a fired secular subject teacher with very nominal religous duties) stated that the term "minister" is to be broady defined- though not absolute. They then proceeded to rule 9-0 against the teacher.

    At the end of the day, I think even the progressive justices of SCOTUS is going to err on the side of the First Amendment for two reasons:

    - Practical (Rule against us? OK, in the future every employee at this church or mosque will have a religous function of some sort)
    - Philosophical reasons (churches, temples, etc, must be free to select their own represenatives for the First to have real meaning).
    Tabor was a pretty cut and dry case. The teacher in question sought and earned a vocational diploma, was formally recognized and titled as a minister of the Lutheran Church, claimed and received benefits reserved for ministers, taught a religion course, and perhaps most important referred to herself as a minister during and after her employment. There was therefore zero doubt that the Lutheran Church's classification of her as a minister was appropriate. The Herx case is completely opposite of that.

  9. #129
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    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Concur, but OTOH...


    Getting married to the babydaddy isn't necessarily always the right thing to do. I am very traditional and it is hard for me to admit that... but if the babydaddy is a meth-head couch potato living off disability in his parent's garage, she would do better to run away screaming than marry him... and maybe the church ought to exercise a smidge more compassion and a smidge less judgmentalism in such a case. JM0.02
    apparently she "intends" to get married "eventually". Both are raising kids from previous marriages.... I think the church made the right call here.

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    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    it depends on how she is approaching it. We all make mistakes, but refusing to acknowledge those mistakes can be problematic for people in positions of influence in a church, especially over children. If this church doesn't want to be the place where 4 year olds learn "Oh no, I don't have a husband, I just sleep around with whoever I feel like", then I can understand that.



    What I find interesting is that when we have this discussion about homosexuals, everyone rushes to insist that of course they would never force a church to hire or retain people who openly violate the moral code of the faith. So this could easily be a bit of a test case of that concept.
    Oh, I didn't say they couldn't fire her. She signed the contract willingly, people have right to contract. The firing was legal and completely their prerogative.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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