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Thread: Church fires unwed pregant employee

  1. #91
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    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    So ignore the failure to keep up her end of the bargain and retain an employee who doesnt show good moral character.... instead of firing her and making room for someone who is.... wow you are warped.
    Yeah. I mean it's not like giving people a second chance is anywhere in the bible.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

  2. #92
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    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin View Post
    She is a minister in the church organization and has to follow the same guidelines.
    Just because the employer may try to classify her position as ministerial now does not mean that such a status cannot be legally challenged. For example, the Diocese of Fort Wayne-South Bend recently tried and to use the ministerial exception as justification for firing a teacher. They lost because, as the judge aptly noted:

    "The Diocese hasn’t shown that Mrs. Herx’s teaching qualifications or job responsibilities in any way compare to Ms. Perich’s situation. Nothing in the summary judgment record suggests that Mrs. Herx was a member of the clergy of the Catholic Church. Mrs. Herx has never led planning for a Mass, hasn’t been ordained by the Catholic Church, hasn’t held a title with the Catholic Church, has never had (and wasn’t required to have) any religious instruction or training to be a teacher at the school, has never held herself out as a priest or minister, and was considered by the principal to be a “lay teacher.” The religion teachers for the Diocese schools have different contracts than the non-religion teachers and are required to have religious education and training. For example, Cynthia Wolf, a religion teacher in the Diocese, has a Master’s Degree in Theology. Labeling Mrs. Herx a “minister” based on her attendance and participation in prayer and religious services with her students, which was done in a supervisory capacity, would greatly expand the scope of the ministerial exception and ultimately would qualify all of the Diocese’s teachers as ministers, a position rejected by the Hosanna-Tabor Court."

  3. #93
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    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Yeah, for as much as they'll cry to think about the children, they sure didn't here. But I still say it's their call.
    I agree it is their call.

    But IMHO, not very Jesus-y.

  4. #94
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    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by PoS View Post
    I agree, the church is like a business and so they should have the right to hire or fire as they see fit. However, I am against their tax free status on income.
    I wholeheartedly agree. If they give to the community, run a free clinic, operate a soup kitchen (etc)they can claim deductions.

  5. #95
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    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    They are free to do so. Though it's interesting how heartless and cruel Christians can be at times.
    it depends on how she is approaching it. We all make mistakes, but refusing to acknowledge those mistakes can be problematic for people in positions of influence in a church, especially over children. If this church doesn't want to be the place where 4 year olds learn "Oh no, I don't have a husband, I just sleep around with whoever I feel like", then I can understand that.



    What I find interesting is that when we have this discussion about homosexuals, everyone rushes to insist that of course they would never force a church to hire or retain people who openly violate the moral code of the faith. So this could easily be a bit of a test case of that concept.

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    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    it depends on how she is approaching it. We all make mistakes, but refusing to acknowledge those mistakes can be problematic for people in positions of influence in a church, especially over children. If this church doesn't want to be the place where 4 year olds learn "Oh no, I don't have a husband, I just sleep around with whoever I feel like", then I can understand that.
    same church that teaches "judge not....", I'm sure, right?

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    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Yeah. I mean it's not like giving people a second chance is anywhere in the bible.
    Forgiveness =/= Retaining Someone Who Will Be Shaping Your Children.

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    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    It is a tough call, but the girl cannot really work for a religious organization, while blatantly flaunting religious law in public.
    the wat?

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    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by SlevinKelevra View Post
    same church that teaches "judge not....", I'm sure, right?
    Interesting how everyone knows that verse, but no one bothers to find out what it means.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1 Corinthians 6
    2 Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! 4 Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, do you ask for a ruling from those whose way of life is scorned in the church? 5 I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers?
    Christians are fully capable of judging deeds. What we are not to do is judge the status of someone's soul, nor assume that we are greater than another because of our ability to see their faults. This woman is certainly no better than I am (and, in all likelihood, is frankly much better of a person, if we are equal in our status as sinners).

    Jesus was also clear about how to organize around public refusals to acknowledge ones' problems:

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew 18
    15 “If your brother or sister[b] sins,[c] go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’[d] 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
    Its worth noting that the next verse (“Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be[e] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[f] loosed in heaven.) forms (as I understand it) the basis for Catholic Excommunication.


    All of which remains immaterial. Forgiveness is not the same thing as continuing to allow someone to be in a position of influence over children.

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    Re: Church fires unwed pregant employee

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Interesting how everyone knows that verse, but no one bothers to find out what it means.



    Christians are fully capable of judging deeds. What we are not to do is judge the status of someone's soul, nor assume that we are greater than another because of our ability to see their faults. This woman is certainly no better than I am (and, in all likelihood, is frankly much better of a person, if we are equal in our status as sinners).

    Jesus was also clear about how to organize around public refusals to acknowledge ones' problems:



    Its worth noting that the next verse (“Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be[e] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[f] loosed in heaven.) forms (as I understand it) the basis for Catholic Excommunication.


    All of which remains immaterial. Forgiveness is not the same thing as continuing to allow someone to be in a position of influence over children.


    how do the verses you quote justify firing someone?



    oh. they don't.



    do you not see your own cognitive dissonance? ("not better than another" followed by "not in position to influence children")

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