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Thread: APNewsBreak: Girl says she knows she'll die without chemo

  1. #281
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    Re: APNewsBreak: Girl says she knows she'll die without chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Still making this flawed claim after it has been proven that she is not old enough to make those decisions under CT law? Good.
    No, because there is no law that says "A 17 year old is allowed to make her own medical decisions".

    Unless that medical decision involves abortion.

    In other words, she controls her own body, except when she doesn't and the state controls it.

    You approve of that. I don't.
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    Re: APNewsBreak: Girl says she knows she'll die without chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    What does cooking meth have to do with this?
    It is to demonstrate the point that there are obvious circumstances in which the parents would not be given deference as responsible parties, and putting their children at risk of death is one of those cases. Her mother is putting her child at risk of death by supporting her decision to forgo chemo. Sure, they're not equivalent, but the point is I think even YOU would concede that the state SHOULD under some circumstances intervene.

    And why do you demand an alternative medical treatment? It isn't your daughter. And the daughter herself made her own decision about what was best for her. Some people are smart like that. Even some women.
    Because she's a child and in the absence of a viable alternative treatment, the parties are obviously not making responsible decisions with this minor child's life on the line.

    As to that last comment, if you decide to eat dried plums as your cancer treatment, I'll wish you luck because as an adult you can make that decision. She's not an adult.

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    Re: APNewsBreak: Girl says she knows she'll die without chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    So is dying while getting chemotherapy treatments. I saw it first hand with my mother.
    It's a horrible death. One family member passed 3 years ago in December and another is dying. Chemo made it much, much worse. The oncologist said it would and told us there is a field of study which is indicating that chemo may extend life a week, or two or a month. But honestly, I wished neither would have done more than a course. The subsequent courses took a greater and greater toll. I understand why they did. Neither wanted to "give up". Their last months were/have been hellacious and sad. The pain from the complications was/is awful.

    My condolences for the passing of your mother, TB.
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    Re: APNewsBreak: Girl says she knows she'll die without chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    She's a minor child - that's where the "right" originates, same as if this person was an infant living in a crack house. The principle is straightforward.



    If she was 18, it would bother me. She's not. And they're not "playing God" - they're protecting the interests of minor children in their state, which is, IMO, an entirely appropriate role of the state. What liberal philosophy would find otherwise? Libertarians would embrace your point of view....
    You're right. Liberal philosophy seems to embrace the assumption that parents aren't capable of making decisions on their own behalf. The government needs to dictate what their kids eat, what movies they see, when they're allowed to have sex, when they're allowed to terminate pregnancies, what medical procedures they have to have, etc. That is why I'm not a Liberal. I don't care for politicians making parenting choices for me. Contrary to what Mrs. Clinton said, some of us can raise a child without needing other people to help.
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    Re: APNewsBreak: Girl says she knows she'll die without chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    No, because there is no law that says "A 17 year old is allowed to make her own medical decisions".
    Good, I'm glad you finally understand that CT doesn't place abortion along with other medical procedures. Don't like it, don't live there. Isn't that the solution you usually give?
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    Re: APNewsBreak: Girl says she knows she'll die without chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Come on....crack isn't a medical treatment, and it isn't legal. And we aren't talking about a baby - she's 17 and can verbalize what she wants for her body.
    No, crack isn't, but there is no evidence the mother and minor child had a treatment plan better than crack, which is a huge part of the problem.

    And "Verbalization" isn't any kind of reasonable test as to when a minor can make her own medical decisions.

    I personally have a lot of faith in doctors. But that's my choice. That doesn't mean I demand that other parents have the same mindset I do.
    If you believe that parent's can make ANY decision with regard to their children, and the state has no right to intervene, then state that. If not, then our disagreement is on when and where the state SHOULD intervene. I understand differences here, but just don't believe they involve much in the way of principles about the proper role of the state, so much as where we'd personally draw some line that we all agree should be drawn.

    I didn't breastfeed any of my children. Against my doctors' recommendations, no less. That was my choice. Would it have been better if I had? All of the experts say so. But what right would anyone have to compel me to do it because it was a better alternative than Similac? I listen to doctors but they don't dictate everything. And I don't expect everyone to do or think as I do.
    OK, so on that line we'd agree.

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    Re: APNewsBreak: Girl says she knows she'll die without chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    It's a horrible death. One family member passed 3 years ago in December and another is dying. Chemo made it much, much worse. The oncologist said it would and told us there is a field of study which is indicating that chemo may extend life a week, or two or a month. But honestly, I wished neither would have done more than a course. The subsequent courses took a greater and greater toll. I understand why they did. Neither wanted to "give up". Their last months were/have been hellacious and sad. The pain from the complications was/is awful.

    My condolences for the passing of your mother, TB.
    Thanks Gina, and happy new year hugs to you!

    Before my mother passed away she told me and my sister that she wished she hadn't have done what she did (chemo and radiation). It didn't add to her life, the 4 years that she went through it were awful, and she wants us to think about that should we ever find ourselves where she was. My mom was a very vibrant woman and loved life, and when her quality of life went, well you know the rest. As much pain as she was in from the cancer (bone), the horrible retching, the sweats, the discomfort, the constant feeling of exhaustion, all of the side effects from the treatments were as awful as the cancer was.

    That's another reason I think this is a very personal choice.

    I'm so very sorry about your family member as well, and I will send good thoughts his/her way, as well as all of your family. It isn't easy on anyone who has to live it or see it. I'm also sorry about the one you already lost.
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    Re: APNewsBreak: Girl says she knows she'll die without chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    My niece was not "clinically dead". And it's called "life support", not "death support".
    Potato, potato. If there was no chance of the child actually living, and the parents kept her hooked up to a machine because that's what they believed "life" was, it's definitely death support. It's holding off death for as long as you possibly can in hopes that something other than nature will take its course.

    A conscious child born with a poor prognosis for a quality life. That isn't a child considered "clinically dead" nor was she brain dead.

    You asked the question if a parent gets to decide if a child lives or dies. I said there was no answer because you can list situations where the parents most certainly do get to decide. My sister and her husband decided to let nature take its course. That is exactly what the parents of this young lady and also what she herself have decided. As opposed to you know, chemotherapy, which in her case had an 85% chance of actually saving her. Which again, last time: What chances did she have with "alternative treatments"?

    You can talk about alternative medicine all you want. I have no idea why you brought it into a post exchange with me. I wasn't posting about alternative medicine. My posts and my opinion was clear.
    So the parents acted based on the rights provided by the state, you saw no problem with it, however, when it's clear that the state was acting within its rights, you oppose it. Is that what we're getting at here? Because that's REALLY something you should take up with the state of CT.
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    Re: APNewsBreak: Girl says she knows she'll die without chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    You're right. Liberal philosophy seems to embrace the assumption that parents aren't capable of making decisions on their own behalf. The government needs to dictate what their kids eat, what movies they see, when they're allowed to have sex, when they're allowed to terminate pregnancies, what medical procedures they have to have, etc. That is why I'm not a Liberal. I don't care for politicians making parenting choices for me. Contrary to what Mrs. Clinton said, some of us can raise a child without needing other people to help.
    Oh come on, that's just ridiculous.

    Don't you accept that there are cases where the state should intervene and remove a child from the care of her parents? If so we agree on the principle, just not on the circumstances in which this drastic step should be taken.

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    Re: APNewsBreak: Girl says she knows she'll die without chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Good, I'm glad you finally understand that CT doesn't place abortion along with other medical procedures. Don't like it, don't live there. Isn't that the solution you usually give?
    I don't live there. I live in NH. I'm not debating the merits of living in CT. I'm debating whether the government should be applauded for deciding a young woman should have no control over her body.

    I don't want to talk about abortion again, but if you don't think abortion is by definition a "medical procedure", I can't help you there either. It is.
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

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