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Thread: APNewsBreak: Girl says she knows she'll die without chemo

  1. #181
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    Re: APNewsBreak: Girl says she knows she'll die without chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    But when did she gain this ability to determine her own fate. In NJ, the law says at age 18. What age are you using?

    The other problem specific to this case is she had an opportunity to convince a judge she was making responsible decisions, and she failed. I guess skipping doctors' appointments, running away from home, and not having any plan of treating the cancer will tend to do that.....
    I'm using her age. 17. NJ isn't CT so I'm not sure what the law in NJ has to do with anything?
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    Re: APNewsBreak: Girl says she knows she'll die without chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    You are conflating "unhealthy diet" with "she must have this treatment for a fatal illness or she will die."

    Really, dude?
    But it's not about an unhealthy died or treatment for a fatal disease, it's about the reach of government to take children away from parents. Bleat on about bad comparisons though - that topic is right up your alley.
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: APNewsBreak: Girl says she knows she'll die without chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    I'm using her age. 17. NJ isn't CT so I'm not sure what the law in NJ has to do with anything?
    Should have been completely obvious I made a mistake/typo and was referring to the law that applied to this person in this case.

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    Re: APNewsBreak: Girl says she knows she'll die without chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    You could try not oversimplifying the situation.
    Of course not.

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    Re: APNewsBreak: Girl says she knows she'll die without chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Should have been completely obvious I made a mistake/typo and was referring to the law that applied to this person in this case.
    No, it wasn't obvious that you made a typo. NJ and CT aren't even the same letters. I asked you why you referenced NJ.

    So what was your post about now that we cleared up that this teen is in CT? What were you asking me what "age I was using" for?
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    Re: APNewsBreak: Girl says she knows she'll die without chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Interesting question. However, I think it can be answered with a more serious question. What does the state do when parents are starving a child? Are the children kept in the home? Or is it determined that the parent's have a right to starve the child because children belong to them?
    As with anything what is the definition of "starving" that the state is using? It's difficult to answer but let's take it to the extreme for the sake of your question: The state can take a child away due to extreme neglect such as starvation. In my state, NJ Law Sec 9:6-1 states:

    Neglect of a child shall consist in any of the following acts, by anyone having the custody or control of the childa) willfully failing to provide proper and sufficient food, clothing, maintenance, regular school education as required by law, medical attendance or surgical treatment, and a clean and proper home, or (b) failure to do or permit to be done any act necessary for the child's physical or moral well-being.
    However, in the non-extreme case, section 9:6-1(d) states Abuse of a child can be:

    (d) the habitual use by the parent or by a person having the custody and control of a child, in the hearing of such child, of profane, indecent or obscene language;
    So a child can be considered "abused" when Daddy uses the F word too often. For example section (c) of that same law states:

    (c) habitually tormenting, vexing or afflicting a child;
    So badgering a child (ie., tormenting) them about doing their homework is considered "cruelty".

    http://www.nj.gov/dcf/reporting/links/

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    It is clear that if in the end, the parent's proposed plan of action will lead to the child's death (like not going through chemo would), then the state must step in and do what is necessary to save that child's life as the parent's demonstrate they don't have the best interest. Do you disagree?
    I do disagree. If the parent and the child do not want to have the chemo, then the responsibility of that child's welfare falls on the parent, not the state. If the state wishes to bring charges against the parent - why didn't they? They had no problem taking the kid away and forcing her to have chemo. To me that's stepping over the line. If the kid believes what she says, when she turns 18 she will stop the chemo and may die anyway --- then again, she may not die.

    I do not see shared responsibility of a child as being the states obligation unless clear and immediate harm or death is involved. I agree mostly with obvious situations where children are neglected, abandoned, are beaten, starved, etc... That is not present in this case.
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: APNewsBreak: Girl says she knows she'll die without chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    I'm using her age. 17. NJ isn't CT so I'm not sure what the law in NJ has to do with anything?
    I looked this up because I know you're a bit of a stickler for these kinds of arguments. Connecticut laws for consent for under 18s are pretty murky and the state does decide when consent is necessary and when it isn't. The court had the power to remove her from her household as the mother's argument for denying her daughter's life saving treatment went against ... well.. the facts presented by her doctors. If the daughter had lived by herself, and had shown she had made this judgement based on something other than her opinion, the state wouldn't have had much of a case. This is just based on what is in these links:

    Medical Treatment for Minors
    Can Connecticut Force A Teenage Girl To Undergo Chemotherapy? : Shots - Health News : NPR

    What is clear is that minors in Connecticut can't consent/deny any medical procedure they wish. CT law even goes as far as saying that the minor's consent isn't always required.
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    Re: APNewsBreak: Girl says she knows she'll die without chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    But it's not about an unhealthy died or treatment for a fatal disease, it's about the reach of government to take children away from parents. Bleat on about bad comparisons though - that topic is right up your alley.
    This thread is very much about treatments for fatal illnesses.

    You are saying parents should be allowed to let their child die.
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    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: APNewsBreak: Girl says she knows she'll die without chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    I looked this up because I know you're a bit of a stickler for these kinds of arguments. Connecticut laws for consent for under 18s are pretty murky and the state does decide when consent is necessary and when it isn't. The court had the power to remove her from her household as the mother's argument for denying her daughter's life saving treatment went against ... well.. the facts presented by her doctors. If the daughter had lived by herself, and had shown she had made this judgement based on something other than her opinion, the state wouldn't have had much of a case. This is just based on what is in these links:

    Medical Treatment for Minors
    Can Connecticut Force A Teenage Girl To Undergo Chemotherapy? : Shots - Health News : NPR

    What is clear is that minors in Connecticut can't consent/deny any medical procedure they wish. CT law even goes as far as saying that the minor's consent isn't always required.
    Minors in Connecticut can get an abortion over the age of 15 without their parents' consent. Abortion is a medical procedure (and a very protected one):

    http://www.ct.gov/dcf/lib/dcf/child_...s_of_teens.pdf

    Page 18.
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    Re: APNewsBreak: Girl says she knows she'll die without chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I think it's reasonable for a court to examine those parental decisions and step in when they're clearly irresponsible, as is the case here from the facts we know.

    Or to take if from another direction, it's clearly a case with important principles in opposition to one another, and a very difficult balancing act. There are CLEAR liberty issues at stake, and issues of parental rights, but I think we all also recognize that parents can't be immune from having their decisions nullified - say, a mother feeding pot brownies to a toddler, or cooking meth in the kitchen next to the baby's crib. The state has a clear interest in removing the child from that environment and protecting her from harm.

    Here, the court weighed those important principles and decided to try to save the life of a minor, over her and her mother's objections. I understand those who think the court's ruling was overbroad, but the ruling has the advantage of being consistent with ALL the medical evidence that the decision is clearly in the best interests of the minor child. If she had a plan of treatment not involving chemo that had a reasonable chance of success, the court might have decided differently, and I might agree. But from what we know, and it's not all, her alternative treatment 'plan' is 'no poison' - that's it. So I suspect the judge lost very little sleep on this one, and rightly so IMO.
    That was well stated Jasper....Thank you...And from what I know, I would tend to agree, but I remain skeptically critical....But I do hope she ends up ok.
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