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Thread: APNewsBreak: Girl says she knows she'll die without chemo

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    Re: APNewsBreak: Girl says she knows she'll die without chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    This most certainly is "her body, her choice" Minnie. It's her body and it should be her choice what medical procedures she decides her body will endure. You don't get to pick and choose the application of that thinking.
    The decision to avoid treatment is not reversible, she will almost certainly die a slow painful death. With the decision as to whether to have a child or an abortion the consequences are not as significant and are somewhat reversible. She give can give the child up for adoption if she regrets her decision to have it, and she can have another child later if she regrets the abortion.
    Last edited by Hard Truth; 01-12-15 at 02:40 PM.

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    Re: APNewsBreak: Girl says she knows she'll die without chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by minnie616 View Post
    From MEDscape.com
    Thanks, and I understand....But I guess we are saying that the unalienable right to liberty, is now controlled by the State....
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: APNewsBreak: Girl says she knows she'll die without chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    This most certainly is "her body, her choice" Minnie. It's her body and it should be her choice what medical procedures she decides her body will endure. You don't get to pick and choose the application of that thinking.
    But when did she gain this ability to determine her own fate. In NJ, the law says at age 18. What age are you using?

    The other problem specific to this case is she had an opportunity to convince a judge she was making responsible decisions, and she failed. I guess skipping doctors' appointments, running away from home, and not having any plan of treating the cancer will tend to do that.....

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    Re: APNewsBreak: Girl says she knows she'll die without chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Thanks, and I understand....But I guess we are saying that the unalienable right to liberty, is now controlled by the State....
    But only in a very limited sense - she's a minor, making an irreversible decision that will likely cost her her life. When she becomes an adult, the state will let her be the idiot she so wants to be now.

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    Re: APNewsBreak: Girl says she knows she'll die without chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    But only in a very limited sense - she's a minor, making an irreversible decision that will likely cost her her life. When she becomes an adult, the state will let her be the idiot she so wants to be now.
    Ok, but it is still as I say...And not necessarily the girl's liberty, but the parents....unless you think that parents have no rights to make decisions for their kids, regardless how stupid they can be.
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    Re: APNewsBreak: Girl says she knows she'll die without chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Ok, but it is still as I say...And not necessarily the girl's liberty, but the parents....unless you think that parents have no rights to make decisions for their kids, regardless how stupid they can be.
    I think it's reasonable for a court to examine those parental decisions and step in when they're clearly irresponsible, as is the case here from the facts we know.

    Or to take if from another direction, it's clearly a case with important principles in opposition to one another, and a very difficult balancing act. There are CLEAR liberty issues at stake, and issues of parental rights, but I think we all also recognize that parents can't be immune from having their decisions nullified - say, a mother feeding pot brownies to a toddler, or cooking meth in the kitchen next to the baby's crib. The state has a clear interest in removing the child from that environment and protecting her from harm.

    Here, the court weighed those important principles and decided to try to save the life of a minor, over her and her mother's objections. I understand those who think the court's ruling was overbroad, but the ruling has the advantage of being consistent with ALL the medical evidence that the decision is clearly in the best interests of the minor child. If she had a plan of treatment not involving chemo that had a reasonable chance of success, the court might have decided differently, and I might agree. But from what we know, and it's not all, her alternative treatment 'plan' is 'no poison' - that's it. So I suspect the judge lost very little sleep on this one, and rightly so IMO.

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    Re: APNewsBreak: Girl says she knows she'll die without chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Same here. On the one hand people support her right to make decisions regarding her body. On the other hand, those same people don't support her right to make decisions regarding her body. How do you reconcile that?
    You could try not oversimplifying the situation.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: APNewsBreak: Girl says she knows she'll die without chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Ok, but it is still as I say...And not necessarily the girl's liberty, but the parents....unless you think that parents have no rights to make decisions for their kids, regardless how stupid they can be.
    I don't think parents have the right to kill their child, no.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: APNewsBreak: Girl says she knows she'll die without chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I think it's reasonable for a court to examine those parental decisions and step in when they're clearly irresponsible, as is the case here from the facts we know.
    If there is an immediate and urgent chance of injury or death - yes. Any other reason, no. The state I think interferes too often with parental decisions especially in this type of a case. This isn't a toddler being abused or living in a meth house. All too often, the state believes they are the guardian of children under 18 when that should not be the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Or to take if from another direction, it's clearly a case with important principles in opposition to one another, and a very difficult balancing act. There are CLEAR liberty issues at stake, and issues of parental rights, but I think we all also recognize that parents can't be immune from having their decisions nullified - say, a mother feeding pot brownies to a toddler, or cooking meth in the kitchen next to the baby's crib. The state has a clear interest in removing the child from that environment and protecting her from harm.

    Here, the court weighed those important principles and decided to try to save the life of a minor, over her and her mother's objections. I understand those who think the court's ruling was overbroad, but the ruling has the advantage of being consistent with ALL the medical evidence that the decision is clearly in the best interests of the minor child. If she had a plan of treatment not involving chemo that had a reasonable chance of success, the court might have decided differently, and I might agree. But from what we know, and it's not all, her alternative treatment 'plan' is 'no poison' - that's it. So I suspect the judge lost very little sleep on this one, and rightly so IMO.
    I don't think the court should have the option to rule in such a case as the girl will be 18 in months. I'm all for education about medications and treatments but the alternative here is she will get chemo or a few months and possibly - when she turns 18, decide to end it. What then? The court forces an age legal adult to finish the chemo? No. If a parent says no chemo and they are on board with it and the 17 year old girl also agrees with it - the state should not have the option to over rule. If the parent is irresponsible, why then are charges not being brought against the parent?
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: APNewsBreak: Girl says she knows she'll die without chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    If there is an immediate and urgent chance of injury or death - yes. Any other reason, no. The state I think interferes too often with parental decisions especially in this type of a case. This isn't a toddler being abused or living in a meth house. All too often, the state believes they are the guardian of children under 18 when that should not be the case.
    But there is an immediate chance of injury - you can only treat cancer in its early stages when it's in its early stages.

    I don't think the court should have the option to rule in such a case as the girl will be 18 in months. I'm all for education about medications and treatments but the alternative here is she will get chemo or a few months and possibly - when she turns 18, decide to end it. What then? The court forces an age legal adult to finish the chemo? No. If a parent says no chemo and they are on board with it and the 17 year old girl also agrees with it - the state should not have the option to over rule. If the parent is irresponsible, why then are charges not being brought against the parent?
    I guess I'm not much moved by the fact she's an immature 17 years old versus 12 or 4. I understand your point, but we just disagree, which is fine.

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