Obama Proposes 2 Years of Free Community College

[Erod]

Prediction: Virtually the same number of people will go to college and earn degrees, but the government will rake in another 1/2 trillion in the process.

 

[ludin]

Just for future reference. Everyone knows that nothing is free. Everyone knows that if you have a public program that it is paid for with taxes. Everyone knows this.

evidently Obama doesn't think so. he says it's free. it isn't free. please tell me how to pay for this and who is going to pay for it.
unless it costs 0 it isn't free. that is what the word free means 0 cost.

 

[nota bene]

Many, not all are absolute rip offs.

Vocational schools don't typically vet their students prior to " accepting " them.

They just need payment and you're in.

This can wind up leaving kids with allot of debt and no closer to finding a good job.

I'd like some specific examples of this. If a technical college is accredited, this isn't going to happen.

 

[nota bene]

They went away in my area in various phases. Part of it was because of the need to push up test scores in the other parts of the curriculum (culinary/food services went first because that was where the barely literate pooled), part of it was budget, and the last nail in the coffin was when the high schools went for a period to block scheduling sort of like college but your schedule rotated so that some weeks were more intense in some subjects than in other weeks with an optional 7th period. Since the remaining vocational classes (automotive and electrician) already used big blocks they interfered with the rotation of the other mandatory subjects like math, English and science. There are still some classes as electives like Shop, but it is not the same as the training programs used to be.

They're coming back, and some of them are terrific "alternative routes to the middle class." The Return of Vocational High Schools: More Options or the Kiss of Death? - US News

"For years, vocational high schools have been seen as a lesser form of schooling – tracking some kids off to work while others were encouraged to go on to college and pursue higher income professions. But things are changing. Vocational high schools are focusing much more on preparing students for higher education." Rethinking vocational high school as a path to college | Marketplace.org

That "higher education" is often an Associate of Applied Science. To earn one, a student does have to take the basics that every freshman and sophomore college student takes. It's a solid two-year degree.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

evidently Obama doesn't think so. he says it's free. it isn't free. please tell me how to pay for this and who is going to pay for it.
unless it costs 0 it isn't free. that is what the word free means 0 cost.

Free as in doesn't cost the student anything directly for tuition. Just like public school is free in the same regard (excluding registration fees). However, everyone knows that while you don't pay tuition for public school, you do pay taxes to fund it.

 

[Anthony60]

You know, the media and the leftist scream and moan anytime anyone makes some profit. Yet, they could not care less about the extremely over priced costs to get a college education in this country. No big surprise, since it is a leftist enclave. $10k, $20k, $50k and up to sit in a class room with a load of other students and be presented course material. That's got to be a the biggest scam going. But, they will get upset about oil companies making six cents on a gallon of fuel (while the government makes $0.18).

This is just Obama paying off his backers, trying to funnel more of our money to these incredibly over-priced schools. Absolutely disgusting. He should be calling for ways to contain the cost, not trying to find ways to send more of our money to them.

 

[longview]

The Government actually increases it's revenue, by spending money on Higher education.
The increase come from the fact that people with more education earn more and pay more taxes.
Kind of a win-win.

 

[Declan]

They're coming back, and some of them are terrific "alternative routes to the middle class." The Return of Vocational High Schools: More Options or the Kiss of Death? - US News

"For years, vocational high schools have been seen as a lesser form of schooling – tracking some kids off to work while others were encouraged to go on to college and pursue higher income professions. But things are changing. Vocational high schools are focusing much more on preparing students for higher education." Rethinking vocational high school as a path to college | Marketplace.org

That "higher education" is often an Associate of Applied Science. To earn one, a student does have to take the basics that every freshman and sophomore college student takes. It's a solid two-year degree.

The school system next door has one. It is really an alternative school though for baby mommas and discipline cases/underachievers.

 

[imagep]

They went away in my area in various phases. Part of it was because of the need to push up test scores in the other parts of the curriculum (culinary/food services went first because that was where the barely literate pooled), part of it was budget, and the last nail in the coffin was when the high schools went for a period to block scheduling sort of like college but your schedule rotated so that some weeks were more intense in some subjects than in other weeks with an optional 7th period. Since the remaining vocational classes (automotive and electrician) already used big blocks they interfered with the rotation of the other mandatory subjects like math, English and science. There are still some classes as electives like Shop, but it is not the same as the training programs used to be.

At the high school level, a lot of times vo training is a waste.

Most employers really don't want or trust an 18 year old mechanic or carpenter or plumber or electrician, or hair stylist. They want someone older, as do their customers, so few high school vocational school students actually end up with a job in the field they studied. I'm not saying that high school vocational schools is a bad thing, but it's not a fix-all for job training.

 

[imagep]

The Government actually increases it's revenue, by spending money on Higher education.
The increase come from the fact that people with more education earn more and pay more taxes.
Kind of a win-win.

In theory, sure.

But if we train more people for trades, income levels of those trades tends to decline, and we are right back where we started from.

 

[Declan]

At the high school level, a lot of times vo training is a waste.

Most employers really don't want or trust an 18 year old mechanic or carpenter or plumber or electrician, or hair stylist. They want someone older, as do their customers, so few high school vocational school students actually end up with a job in the field they studied. I'm not saying that high school vocational schools is a bad thing, but it's not a fix-all for job training.

In our area it was a good way for them the graduate and then apprentice under a plumber/carpenter/electrician/mechanic. I don't care how old my mechanic is as long as he fixes what needs fixing. My understanding is that the carpentry program had a very high placement rate within the industry when it was operating.

 

[nota bene]

The school system next door has one. It is really an alternative school though for baby mommas and discipline cases/underachievers.

We have a program such as this in my community--an accelerated completion program that helps at-risk students to finish high school. And it's paired with an early childhood development program, meaning that students interested in this have the opportunity to develop their skills by watching the babies while the baby mamas are doing the necessary academic work.

My community has also developed other high schools, one for those interested in criminal justice, another for those interested in health/human sciences, and yet another that targets students who are both extremely promising and mature academically and also financially disadvantaged, primarily because of minority-group status. These students take courses at the community college, and I've seen one Hispanic female who was accepted into the major university of her choice, free ride, at just-turned 16.

The point is that there are all sorts of creative, proactive programs being developed and succeeding.

 

[Declan]

We have a program such as this in my community--an accelerated completion program that helps at-risk students to finish high school. And it's paired with an early childhood development program, meaning that students interested in this have the opportunity to develop their skills by watching the babies while the baby mamas are doing the necessary academic work.

My community has also developed other high schools, one for those interested in criminal justice, another for those interested in health/human sciences, and yet another that targets students who are both extremely promising and mature academically and also financially disadvantaged, primarily because of minority-group status. These students take courses at the community college, and I've seen one Hispanic female who was accepted into the major university of her choice, free ride, at just-turned 16.

The point is that there are all sorts of creative, proactive programs being developed and succeeding.

The math-science magnet school in our system has 99-100% college acceptance rate depending on whether or not a couple people opt for the military instead. I like the direction of specialty schools. I really don't care if someone can answer jeopardy questions as long as they have a realistic chance at good opportunity when they walk out the door. I just don't pretend that they are anything other than what they are. Some kids do well academically and some do not.

 

[longview]

In theory, sure.

But if we train more people for trades, income levels of those trades tends to decline, and we are right back where we started from.

History has not shown that, Better educated people have more choices than just what they are trained in.
A degree opens up other opportunities.
Part of the equation (which most schools do not do) is industry feedback.
I hope they limit this to only non-profit community colleges.

 

[azgreg]

You know, the media and the leftist scream and moan anytime anyone makes some profit. Yet, they could not care less about the extremely over priced costs to get a college education in this country. No big surprise, since it is a leftist enclave. $10k, $20k, $50k and up to sit in a class room with a load of other students and be presented course material. That's got to be a the biggest scam going. But, they will get upset about oil companies making six cents on a gallon of fuel (while the government makes $0.18).

This is just Obama paying off his backers, trying to funnel more of our money to these incredibly over-priced schools. Absolutely disgusting. He should be calling for ways to contain the cost, not trying to find ways to send more of our money to them.

That's not true. Everybody I know (on the left and right) thinks higher education costs are too damn high.

 

[imagep]

History has not shown that, Better educated people have more choices than just what they are trained in.
A degree opens up other opportunities....

So rather than technical degrees oriented to just one skill or profession, maybe we should be concentrating more on a broad based education which could be applicable to any work setting.

I've always thought that we are concerned to much with "majors", rather than getting an education.

 

[longview]

So rather than technical degrees oriented to just one skill or profession, maybe we should be concentrating more on a broad based education which could be applicable to any work setting.

I've always thought that we are concerned to much with "majors", rather than getting an education.

It is kind of a double edge sword.
Industry would like to have students that can hit the ground running if possible.
The Students benefit the most from the broad based education.
The difference between an AS vs AAS or a BS vs BA degree in the number of major hours in the
curriculum.
The students need enough depth in the subject to understand what is going on,
but should also have enough breath of education to see how their own small piece
fits into the broader picture.
The trouble is a Associates degree is only 20 classes, and a BS, BA is only 40 classes.
Sticking all that depth and breath into small integer numbers like that is difficult.

 

[WallStreetVixen]

It depends on the degree. Sure for a law degree it matters where you went to law school, but for an IT degree, unless you plan on working at Google, it doesn't really matter where you went and experience level will dictate your future compensation. The same is true for an RN. For technical fields in particular, college is not about prestige, its literally about gaining skills.

If you're planning on being a Technican, then go to a vocational/trade school. This already cost much less than community college and students can earn certification in less time. But we're not talking about vocational/trade school, we're talking about community college, which won't be enough if you're planning on being somebody.

Community college only serves a few menial purposes: 1) to prepare undecided students for real college 2) to get those who flunked out of a real college a second chance, boosting their GPA for readmittance.

Not to mention, community college doesn't offer as many majors as a regular college. Even if you do plan on transfering to a regular public/private school, a couple of your credits won't be transferable.

Community college is nice for exploring your academic options, but that's all its used for.

 

[azgreg]

I don't know about other states, but here in Arizona the big universities (University of Arizona, Arizona State, and Northern Arizona) have an excellent relationship with the community colleges. The community colleges all have degree programs designed specifically for transfer to the big schools if that's the goal of the student. This is the route that me and my wife took and it worked out quite well. Classes were smaller in size (20-30 students vs 200+ student lecture halls) and I was actually able to discuss things with my professor as apposed to a TA.

 

[nota bene]

The math-science magnet school in our system has 99-100% college acceptance rate depending on whether or not a couple people opt for the military instead. I like the direction of specialty schools. I really don't care if someone can answer jeopardy questions as long as they have a realistic chance at good opportunity when they walk out the door. I just don't pretend that they are anything other than what they are. Some kids do well academically and some do not.

And far too many are pressured into attending college when they don't really want to be there. This isn't anything new; there was never any question at all (except by me) whether I was going to college, only where. I get that, and this is why I think that a year or two of working is so helpful in clarifying goals while one is learning how to be independent, which includes living with the consequences of the choices you've made.

Further, there are far, far too many college students today who are simply unequipped to do college-level work. They haven't mastered the basics--they can't comprehend what they read (including newspaper articles, much less longer and more thoughtful works), they can't write, and they can't do basic math. They have limited critical thinking skills. At the same time, too many have been falsely validated their entire lives by being awarded a trophy just for showing up.

The consequence is that colleges and universities are continuing to dumb down their offerings, particularly the "core curriculum" courses, meaning that the unearned social promotions lead them into more advanced coursework for which they are also entirely unprepared.

 

[Declan]

And far too many are pressured into attending college when they don't really want to be there. This isn't anything new; there was never any question at all (except by me) whether I was going to college, only where. I get that, and this is why I think that a year or two of working is so helpful in clarifying goals while one is learning how to be independent, which includes living with the consequences of the choices you've made.

Further, there are far, far too many college students today who are simply unequipped to do college-level work. They haven't mastered the basics--they can't comprehend what they read (including newspaper articles, much less longer and more thoughtful works), they can't write, and they can't do basic math. They have limited critical thinking skills. At the same time, too many have been falsely validated their entire lives by being awarded a trophy just for showing up.

The consequence is that colleges and universities are continuing to dumb down their offerings, particularly the "core curriculum" courses, meaning that the unearned social promotions lead them into more advanced coursework for which they are also entirely unprepared.

I think part of the problem now is that no job is that safe and there are no worst case scenario fall back jobs for people in which they can have some psychological comfort. "If worse comes to worst, I can work in the <factory> <mine> <plant>." No fallback position and the likelihood of people having to have multiple careers over their lives affect confidence, and confidence affects the economy. We may not have experienced an economic depression, but I think the public psyche has been fighting a psychological one. Hopefully the job scene will stabilize enough in the places where they are still very much in flux to give people confidence again that they do not have to go on welfare forever or move to New York and wash dishes with the Guatemalans.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

If you're planning on being a Technican, then go to a vocational/trade school. This already cost much less than community college and students can earn certification in less time. But we're not talking about vocational/trade school, we're talking about community college, which won't be enough if you're planning on being somebody.

Community college only serves a few menial purposes: 1) to prepare undecided students for real college 2) to get those who flunked out of a real college a second chance, boosting their GPA for readmittance.

Not to mention, community college doesn't offer as many majors as a regular college. Even if you do plan on transfering to a regular public/private school, a couple of your credits won't be transferable.

Community college is nice for exploring your academic options, but that's all its used for.

It all depends on the degree route they go in. For example, an individual can enroll in a decent community college and get an Associate of Computer Science. From there they can get an entry level C#, Python, or Rails developer job that would start them around 55k a year or so depending on the market. Within 10 years they should be up around 85k or more just from increased experience. Hell in 15 years just with that associate degree to start them out, they could be a lead programmer earning 100k. In fact, there probably will be no difference in their salary level by the time they are in their mid 30s if they had a 2 year or 4 year computer science degree as by then their salary will be dictated by their skill level and experience.

An individual could also get an Associate Science of Nursing from a community college and become an RN. That is a good job to have that is recession proof. Moreover they could later continue their education and make more money later on.

 

[jonny5]

Just for future reference. Everyone knows that nothing is free. Everyone knows that if you have a public program that it is paid for with taxes. Everyone knows this.

If that were true, they wouldnt use the word free.

 

[imagep]

I don't know about other states, but here in Arizona the big universities (University of Arizona, Arizona State, and Northern Arizona) have an excellent relationship with the community colleges. The community colleges all have degree programs designed specifically for transfer to the big schools if that's the goal of the student. This is the route that me and my wife took and it worked out quite well. Classes were smaller in size (20-30 students vs 200+ student lecture halls) and I was actually able to discuss things with my professor as apposed to a TA.

It's the same way in SC. Every large college has a two year college that is associated with it, and sometimes the students at the two year college can even participate in extra-curriculars at the four year college. I know one student who attended the two year college but was in the marching band at the four year college.

Midlands Tech is associated with the U of SC (columbia campus), Spartanburg Community College is associated with the U of SC (Upstate Campus), Tri-County tech is associated with Clemson U, Greenville Tech is associated with Furman U, etc.

 

[imagep]

And far too many are pressured into attending college when they don't really want to be there. This isn't anything new; there was never any question at all (except by me) whether I was going to college, only where. I get that, and this is why I think that a year or two of working is so helpful in clarifying goals while one is learning how to be independent, which includes living with the consequences of the choices you've made.

Further, there are far, far too many college students today who are simply unequipped to do college-level work. They haven't mastered the basics--they can't comprehend what they read (including newspaper articles, much less longer and more thoughtful works), they can't write, and they can't do basic math. They have limited critical thinking skills. At the same time, too many have been falsely validated their entire lives by being awarded a trophy just for showing up.

The consequence is that colleges and universities are continuing to dumb down their offerings, particularly the "core curriculum" courses, meaning that the unearned social promotions lead them into more advanced coursework for which they are also entirely unprepared.

I suspect that the percent of our population who aren't really prepared for college is no different than it was fifty years ago, but we do have a larger percentage attending college, thus it's quite natural that more college students are unprepared. But maybe I'm wrong, it's just my opinion.