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Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

This is part of my issue with this whole "protected class" thing that I've been trying to articulate in this thread. I know why they exist, but it also selects winners.

I can be an asshole to the people who work for me who I know are anti-gunners, and they can't cry "hostile workplace".

Yes but discrimination (against protected classes) and creating of a hostile workplace are two different things. The discrimination can cause the latter but abuse of other kinds, including verbal and retaliatory, can cause a hostile workplace as well.
 
Yes but discrimination (against protected classes) and creating of a hostile workplace are two different things. The discrimination can cause the latter but abuse of other kinds, including verbal and retaliatory, can cause a hostile workplace as well.

But in this case we were talking about the hostile work environment caused by him putting his views into a book about homosexuals. So far I've seen no evidence that he discriminated against anyone or the workplace was, in fact, hostile.
 
But in this case we were talking about the hostile work environment caused by him putting his views into a book about homosexuals. So far I've seen no evidence that he discriminated against anyone or the workplace was, in fact, hostile.

We're so far removed from the original post case that I'm not sure what we're talking about there anymore!
 
We're so far removed from the original post case that I'm not sure what we're talking about there anymore!

Come to think of it, neither am I. I'm starting to think this thread belongs in the Conspiracy Theory section. Lotta suppositions on all of our parts.
 
Since I am part of a protected class, where are my bodyguards? Who will protect my threads from being deleted? Who will protect my daughters from people like Epstein? Where is my protection?
 
That's a new one on me. I don't feel protected. But then, perhaps I am not black. lol

You may want to crack open a history book if you don't know what "protected class" means. Everyone else does. Or start a thread asking for a definition.
 
You may want to crack open a history book if you don't know what "protected class" means. Everyone else does. Or start a thread asking for a definition.

I tell you this miss, I'm black and I damn sure don't feel like I am getting any protection. And if black people are a protected class, whoever is protecting them isn't doing a very good job.
 
I tell you this miss, I'm black and I damn sure don't feel like I am getting any protection. And if black people are a protected class, whoever is protecting them isn't doing a very good job.

Then you better complain to your government representatives and not me. I can't help you.
 
Then you better complain to your government representatives and not me. I can't help you.

I know you can't help, that is stating the obvious. I was merely making an observation.
 
The Chief said he only gave the book to those who he had established a Christian relationship with.

If that were true how did news of the chief's book make it to Reed's office? In combination with the following piece from the article...

Mr. Cochran held his own news conference Tuesday. He said that the city’s investigation found that he had not acted in a discriminatory way toward gay people, and said that he had asked for, and received, permission from the proper bureaucratic channels to write the book — an assertion Mr. Reed’s office disputes.

Mr. Reed added that the chief had not told him about the book and its “inflammatory content.”

...the chief's statement that he handed the book out only to like-minded Christians is highly suspect. If he does believe that's what he did, he misjudged greatly, alienated his employees and created a hostile work environment. And of course it reflected badly on the city itself.

Because the book had been published, it was available to anyone who wanted to read it. They created their own hostile environment by citing a book that could have just as well been the Bible.

The chief didn't just write the book on the side and then get ambushed with it. He made it a work issue.
 
Actually, if you draw a line directly from your first point to your third point, then yes, you could make the argument that he was fired for his beliefs, so no, his right to free speech wasn't protected.

No, actually not. As I told WHC, he decided to make his beliefs a work issue, and that's what's at heart here. Now, if you told me that one of his employees followed him after work to his church where they recited anti-gay statements, and then reported back to the Mayor's office thus getting the chief fired, then that would certainly be different (and would open an entirely separate can of worms best left for another thread*). But as the Chief he brought his beliefs into the workplace and made it a departmental issue. So, to recap...

1. He was not fired for his beliefs, he was fired for making his beliefs a workplace issue.
2. He was not arrested for stating his beliefs, thus his first amendment rights were not infringed.

You're right, you can't yell "fire" in a theater (I detest that overused phrase).

I detest even more that it must still be said. People who believe that free speech has no exceptions would probably be surprised to learn about laws against libel and slander. But then, you'll notice how often that speaking out against [fill in undesirable demographic here] is protected by the first amendment, yet criticizing that person's belief is suddenly no longer free speech, but rather "infringing on that person's freedom of speech." Convenient that, no?

But "hostile work environment" protection only extends to "protected classes". In other words, I could say knowing that my boss enjoys slaughtering baby sheep and cows results in an uncomfortable/hostile work environment for me, but I wouldn't have a leg to stand on legally with my HR department.

Sexual orientation is protected under the EEOC. But since you brought it up, if the Chief had handed out books condemning black people or Jews this thread would have ended on page three.

Couldn't subordinates now technically make a case with HR that their manager attending or acting as an elder in a church that teaches the same things about the gay lifestyle that Cochran included in his book create a hostile/uncomfortable work environment for them?

Honestly I don't know. The church seems at times to live by laws written in an entirely different country than the one I live in.

*See that story that came out a bunch of years ago about a school teacher who made a pornography video on her own time, some parents found out about it (wonder how they did that?), and the teacher got fired.
 
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Prove or allege? I haven't seen any stats that demonstrate performance declination due to this.

prove
performance declination meaningless to the lie he was fired for his views
 
If that were true how did news of the chief's book make it to Reed's office? In combination with the following piece from the article...



...the chief's statement that he handed the book out only to like-minded Christians is highly suspect. If he does believe that's what he did, he misjudged greatly, alienated his employees and created a hostile work environment. And of course it reflected badly on the city itself.



The chief didn't just write the book on the side and then get ambushed with it. He made it a work issue.

It was published in Nov. 2013 and the Mayor was given a copy over a year ago. Not until some Homosexuals got wind of it being given to other employees [and reading or being made aware of the content] was there a problem.

http://www.amazon.com/Who-Told-That-Were-Naked/dp/0985496851
 
Any race is protected. Some have less need of protection, but it's there if required.
 
1.)'cept Whites.
2.) When was the last time a hate crime [formally charged] was committed against a White person?

1.) how many posts do you make that are just factually wrong lol
ALL races are protected including whites
2.) don't know when the last time ANY hate crime was committed, don't care, doesnt matter, nor does it change the facts

per the law and rights its all races

facts win again
 
It was published in Nov. 2013 and the Mayor was given a copy over a year ago. Not until some Homosexuals got wind of it being given to other employees [and reading or being made aware of the content] was there a problem.

Who Told You That You Were Naked?: Kelvin J. Cochran: 9780985496852: Amazon.com: Books

His word vs the Mayor's, and ultimately irrelevant as it was his choice to bring his hostile beliefs into the work place. [Most] everyone knows that bringing your politics or especially bigoted beliefs into the workplace is a super risky proposition, multiply that times twenty if you're actually the head of that work environment. I'd like to say the chief learned a hard lesson, but much more likely is that he'll bitch and moan over being a poor victim of da evil homos.

Not that it's especially irrelevant, but do you have any evidence for your "not until some Homosexuals (sic)..." statement?
 
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We must be tolerant.

Of any point of view that unquestioningly follows dogma.
 
His word vs the Mayor's, and ultimately irrelevant as it was his choice to bring his hostile beliefs into the work place. [Most] everyone knows that bringing your politics or especially bigoted beliefs into the workplace is a super risky proposition, multiply that times twenty if you're actually the head of that work environment. I'd like to say the chief learned a hard lesson, but much more likely is that he'll bitch and moan over being a poor victim of da evil homos.

Not that it's especially irrelevant, but do you have any evidence for your "not until some Homosexuals (sic)..." statement?

They could have been Atheists. ;)

There's no proof he gave the book out at work either
 
... He was fired on Jan. 6 by Atlanta’s mayor, Kasim Reed, for homophobic language in the book, “Who Told You That You Were Naked?” Among other things, he called homosexuality a “perversion,” compared it to bestiality and pedophilia, and said homosexual acts are “vile, vulgar and inappropriate.”

Mr. Cochran had already been suspended for a month in November for distributing the book to staff members. Following an internal investigation, the mayor did the right thing and dismissed Mr. Cochran for what he called poor judgment: specifically, for failing to get approval for the book’s publication, for commenting publicly on his suspension after being told not to, and for exposing the city to possible discrimination lawsuits.

... This case is not about free speech or religious freedom. It is, as Mr. Reed said at a news conference, about “making sure that we have an environment in government where everyone, no matter who they love, can come to work from 8 to 5:30 and do their job and then go home without fear of being discriminated against.”
... It should not matter that the investigation found no evidence that Mr. Cochran had mistreated gays or lesbians. His position as a high-level public servant makes his remarks especially problematic, and requires that he be held to a different standard.
[emphasis added by bubba]
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/13/opinion/god-gays-and-the-atlanta-fire-department.html?_r=0
finally it appears we have identified why the fire chief was terminated: "dismissed Mr. Cochran for what he called poor judgment: specifically, for failing to get approval for the book’s publication, for commenting publicly on his suspension after being told not to, and for exposing the city to possible discrimination lawsuits"
before i get into this let's also observe what the fire chief was NOT terminated for doing: "the investigation found no evidence that Mr. Cochran had mistreated gays or lesbians"
this is a very important distinction. there is NO evidence that the fire chief acted in any discriminatory manner. however, he was fired because he could have exposed "the city to possible discrimination lawsuits". but we now know that he did not so so. once again, there is NO evidence that the fire chief discriminated against any of his staff. but he was terminated because he might. how just is that as a basis of termination?
let's go to the issue that he failed to get approval for writing this book. the fire chief insists he cleared it with the ethics official and the ethics official does not say he did not. however, the mayor now objects insisting that the fire chief failed to seek and obtain the mayor's approval. now, why would the fire chief, after obtaining the OK from the designated ethics official, feel the need to pursue this matter at a higher level?
and while the city of atlanta placed the fire chief on suspension it forbade him from commenting publicly about the matter. a matter he did discuss while in his church, while not having received any compensation from the city. so, it is OK to withhold one's salary but then tell them that they cannot discuss a matter that impacts them. and yet there are those who will still insist this is not a first amendment matter, where the city of atlanta believes it can deprive a citizen of free speech and then terminate him for exercising that right
personally, i abhor the position the fire chief took in his book. but i similarly dislike those who tout their pro-life viewpoints to the detriment of personal choice. i don't like it when trim managers express a dissatisfaction with those who allow themselves to be out of shape. but this is not about what i or anyone else likes or dislikes about one's personal opinions. one's actual performance should be determinant about how the employee comported him/herself on the job. and as was shown above, in no way has the fire chief acted in a discriminatory fashion, despite what he has written
here is the mayor's expectation: [this case is] about making sure that we have an environment in government where everyone, no matter who they love, can come to work from 8 to 5:30 and do their job and then go home without fear of being discriminated against
and we find that NO one was actually discriminated against. that's the fact of the matter. but how realistic is the mayor in expecting no employee should be "without fear of being discriminated against". we cannot control an employee's fearfulness. the mayor's expressed expectation is an unreasonable one. one that should not result in the termination of a fire chief who, after investigation, was found to have not engaged in discrimination
this is a bogus termination
 
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