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Thread: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Actually, if you draw a line directly from your first point to your third point, then yes, you could make the argument that he was fired for his beliefs, so no, his right to free speech wasn't protected.
    No, actually not. As I told WHC, he decided to make his beliefs a work issue, and that's what's at heart here. Now, if you told me that one of his employees followed him after work to his church where they recited anti-gay statements, and then reported back to the Mayor's office thus getting the chief fired, then that would certainly be different (and would open an entirely separate can of worms best left for another thread*). But as the Chief he brought his beliefs into the workplace and made it a departmental issue. So, to recap...

    1. He was not fired for his beliefs, he was fired for making his beliefs a workplace issue.
    2. He was not arrested for stating his beliefs, thus his first amendment rights were not infringed.

    You're right, you can't yell "fire" in a theater (I detest that overused phrase).
    I detest even more that it must still be said. People who believe that free speech has no exceptions would probably be surprised to learn about laws against libel and slander. But then, you'll notice how often that speaking out against [fill in undesirable demographic here] is protected by the first amendment, yet criticizing that person's belief is suddenly no longer free speech, but rather "infringing on that person's freedom of speech." Convenient that, no?

    But "hostile work environment" protection only extends to "protected classes". In other words, I could say knowing that my boss enjoys slaughtering baby sheep and cows results in an uncomfortable/hostile work environment for me, but I wouldn't have a leg to stand on legally with my HR department.
    Sexual orientation is protected under the EEOC. But since you brought it up, if the Chief had handed out books condemning black people or Jews this thread would have ended on page three.

    Couldn't subordinates now technically make a case with HR that their manager attending or acting as an elder in a church that teaches the same things about the gay lifestyle that Cochran included in his book create a hostile/uncomfortable work environment for them?
    Honestly I don't know. The church seems at times to live by laws written in an entirely different country than the one I live in.

    *See that story that came out a bunch of years ago about a school teacher who made a pornography video on her own time, some parents found out about it (wonder how they did that?), and the teacher got fired.
    Last edited by Cardinal; 01-12-15 at 11:01 PM.

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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Prove or allege? I haven't seen any stats that demonstrate performance declination due to this.
    prove
    performance declination meaningless to the lie he was fired for his views
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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Amandi View Post
    Actually race is what is protected not a specific race.
    'cept Whites.

    When was the last time a hate crime [formally charged] was committed against a White person?
    32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    If that were true how did news of the chief's book make it to Reed's office? In combination with the following piece from the article...



    ...the chief's statement that he handed the book out only to like-minded Christians is highly suspect. If he does believe that's what he did, he misjudged greatly, alienated his employees and created a hostile work environment. And of course it reflected badly on the city itself.



    The chief didn't just write the book on the side and then get ambushed with it. He made it a work issue.
    It was published in Nov. 2013 and the Mayor was given a copy over a year ago. Not until some Homosexuals got wind of it being given to other employees [and reading or being made aware of the content] was there a problem.

    http://www.amazon.com/Who-Told-That-.../dp/0985496851
    32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Any race is protected. Some have less need of protection, but it's there if required.
    Don't work out, work in.

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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by WCH View Post
    1.)'cept Whites.
    2.) When was the last time a hate crime [formally charged] was committed against a White person?
    1.) how many posts do you make that are just factually wrong lol
    ALL races are protected including whites
    2.) don't know when the last time ANY hate crime was committed, don't care, doesnt matter, nor does it change the facts

    per the law and rights its all races

    facts win again
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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by WCH View Post
    It was published in Nov. 2013 and the Mayor was given a copy over a year ago. Not until some Homosexuals got wind of it being given to other employees [and reading or being made aware of the content] was there a problem.

    Who Told You That You Were Naked?: Kelvin J. Cochran: 9780985496852: Amazon.com: Books
    His word vs the Mayor's, and ultimately irrelevant as it was his choice to bring his hostile beliefs into the work place. [Most] everyone knows that bringing your politics or especially bigoted beliefs into the workplace is a super risky proposition, multiply that times twenty if you're actually the head of that work environment. I'd like to say the chief learned a hard lesson, but much more likely is that he'll bitch and moan over being a poor victim of da evil homos.

    Not that it's especially irrelevant, but do you have any evidence for your "not until some Homosexuals (sic)..." statement?
    Last edited by Cardinal; 01-13-15 at 12:22 PM.

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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    We must be tolerant.

    Of any point of view that unquestioningly follows dogma.

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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    His word vs the Mayor's, and ultimately irrelevant as it was his choice to bring his hostile beliefs into the work place. [Most] everyone knows that bringing your politics or especially bigoted beliefs into the workplace is a super risky proposition, multiply that times twenty if you're actually the head of that work environment. I'd like to say the chief learned a hard lesson, but much more likely is that he'll bitch and moan over being a poor victim of da evil homos.

    Not that it's especially irrelevant, but do you have any evidence for your "not until some Homosexuals (sic)..." statement?
    They could have been Atheists.

    There's no proof he gave the book out at work either
    32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    ... He was fired on Jan. 6 by Atlanta’s mayor, Kasim Reed, for homophobic language in the book, “Who Told You That You Were Naked?” Among other things, he called homosexuality a “perversion,” compared it to bestiality and pedophilia, and said homosexual acts are “vile, vulgar and inappropriate.”

    Mr. Cochran had already been suspended for a month in November for distributing the book to staff members. Following an internal investigation, the mayor did the right thing and dismissed Mr. Cochran for what he called poor judgment: specifically, for failing to get approval for the book’s publication, for commenting publicly on his suspension after being told not to, and for exposing the city to possible discrimination lawsuits.

    ... This case is not about free speech or religious freedom. It is, as Mr. Reed said at a news conference, about “making sure that we have an environment in government where everyone, no matter who they love, can come to work from 8 to 5:30 and do their job and then go home without fear of being discriminated against.”
    ... It should not matter that the investigation found no evidence that Mr. Cochran had mistreated gays or lesbians. His position as a high-level public servant makes his remarks especially problematic, and requires that he be held to a different standard.
    [emphasis added by bubba]
    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/13/op...ment.html?_r=0
    finally it appears we have identified why the fire chief was terminated: "dismissed Mr. Cochran for what he called poor judgment: specifically, for failing to get approval for the book’s publication, for commenting publicly on his suspension after being told not to, and for exposing the city to possible discrimination lawsuits"
    before i get into this let's also observe what the fire chief was NOT terminated for doing: "the investigation found no evidence that Mr. Cochran had mistreated gays or lesbians"
    this is a very important distinction. there is NO evidence that the fire chief acted in any discriminatory manner. however, he was fired because he could have exposed "the city to possible discrimination lawsuits". but we now know that he did not so so. once again, there is NO evidence that the fire chief discriminated against any of his staff. but he was terminated because he might. how just is that as a basis of termination?
    let's go to the issue that he failed to get approval for writing this book. the fire chief insists he cleared it with the ethics official and the ethics official does not say he did not. however, the mayor now objects insisting that the fire chief failed to seek and obtain the mayor's approval. now, why would the fire chief, after obtaining the OK from the designated ethics official, feel the need to pursue this matter at a higher level?
    and while the city of atlanta placed the fire chief on suspension it forbade him from commenting publicly about the matter. a matter he did discuss while in his church, while not having received any compensation from the city. so, it is OK to withhold one's salary but then tell them that they cannot discuss a matter that impacts them. and yet there are those who will still insist this is not a first amendment matter, where the city of atlanta believes it can deprive a citizen of free speech and then terminate him for exercising that right
    personally, i abhor the position the fire chief took in his book. but i similarly dislike those who tout their pro-life viewpoints to the detriment of personal choice. i don't like it when trim managers express a dissatisfaction with those who allow themselves to be out of shape. but this is not about what i or anyone else likes or dislikes about one's personal opinions. one's actual performance should be determinant about how the employee comported him/herself on the job. and as was shown above, in no way has the fire chief acted in a discriminatory fashion, despite what he has written
    here is the mayor's expectation: [this case is] about making sure that we have an environment in government where everyone, no matter who they love, can come to work from 8 to 5:30 and do their job and then go home without fear of being discriminated against
    and we find that NO one was actually discriminated against. that's the fact of the matter. but how realistic is the mayor in expecting no employee should be "without fear of being discriminated against". we cannot control an employee's fearfulness. the mayor's expressed expectation is an unreasonable one. one that should not result in the termination of a fire chief who, after investigation, was found to have not engaged in discrimination
    this is a bogus termination
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