Page 61 of 72 FirstFirst ... 1151596061626371 ... LastLast
Results 601 to 610 of 712

Thread: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

  1. #601
    Kinky
    tres borrachos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    New England
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:20 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    39,217

    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Hadnt thought of that. Then it begs the question....how did they know about the content?
    There are a lot of holes in this entire story and probably needed filling in from quite a few people, like the Chief himself, the Mayor, the HR people, etc. etc.

    Did someone who got the book (but didn't object to the content) mention it in passing to someone who happened to be offended? Did the Chief tell people he gave out the book? Did someone just decide he has a vendetta against the Chief and used this to have him ousted? (I sound like I'm writing the next version of Clue here, I know )

    There's a lot more that we don't know than what we do know I think.
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

  2. #602
    Kinky
    tres borrachos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    New England
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:20 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    39,217

    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Not federally and not in all states....yet.
    Sexual orientation is protected under EEOC.
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

  3. #603
    Sage
    Lursa's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Outside Seattle
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:23 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    29,878

    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Sexual orientation is protected under EEOC.
    So I read this:
    What You Should Know about EEOC and the enforcement protections for LGBT Workers

    Technically sexual orientation isnt a federally protected class but in most cases brought, the commission has decided to cover such discrimination cases under gender/sex discrimination.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  4. #604
    Kinky
    tres borrachos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    New England
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:20 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    39,217

    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    So I read this:
    What You Should Know about EEOC and the enforcement protections for LGBT Workers

    Technically sexual orientation isnt a federally protected class but in most cases brought, the commission has decided to cover such discrimination cases under gender/sex discrimination.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't SCOTUS declare gay as being a protected class when it struck down DOMA?
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

  5. #605
    Sewer Rat
    Risky Thicket's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:09 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    23,803

    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    There are a lot of holes in this entire story and probably needed filling in from quite a few people, like the Chief himself, the Mayor, the HR people, etc. etc.

    Did someone who got the book (but didn't object to the content) mention it in passing to someone who happened to be offended? Did the Chief tell people he gave out the book? Did someone just decide he has a vendetta against the Chief and used this to have him ousted? (I sound like I'm writing the next version of Clue here, I know )

    There's a lot more that we don't know than what we do know I think.
    There is much we do not know. Someone mentioned and it seems that I also read in an article that Cochran was directed not to publicly discuss the issue during his 30 day suspension. Apparently Cochran did violate that directive.

    It has also been reported that he did not receive permission from the Mayor to write the book that he published. That appears to be a factor in the chief's suspension and dismissal.

    Something I read in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution newspaper related that Cochran was put on suspension without pay. That's telling. I interpret that it could mean that between the initial communication between the mayor and Cochran about the issue(s) and the time the suspension went into effect something was said or done that warranted "without pay" while the allegations were being investigated.

    As I said in previous post I have been down this road a few times and I absolutely hated every minute of it. Ending someone's career and taking away their livelihood is a very serious matter. You owe them every possible consideration. In some ways they can make their own situation worse. I'm not saying that is what Cochran did, but putting him on 30 days suspension with or without pay was most likely an option. The fact that Cochran got the without pay suspension cannot be ignored. What happened? Who knows. We likely never will know.

    Lawyers are all involved and HR is involved and you go to meetings concerning the alleged violations and complaints. You have to meet with and talk to a lot of people. Lawyers and HR, in my experiences, also advise you to look at the possibilities of tangental and even non-related areas of possible wrong doing. Doing so makes you feel dirty. It takes up and inordinate amount of time, but again you owe to the employee and to all employees to do it.

    The first time, when I told the HR director that looking at other possibilities made me uncomfortable and that I wasn't going to do it. He responded by saying that I owed it to the employee (a guy I really liked who had almost 20 years of productive employment and a guy who was going to close on a new home 2 DAYS before the scheduled end of his 30 day suspension with pay). HR said, "Look, if you want to help him, and if in other ways he has a clear slate, you may be able to use that to justify something less than dismissal." Unfortunately, I found and documented things I didn't found hard to believe. He was manager and a nice guy. In the end I had no choice.

    Lastly, HR and lawyers always advised that I provide a list of reasons why action was taken when other reasons were discovered during the 30 investigation. Think of it like police always arresting people on multiple charges. Often times there is more than one justifiable reason a person is terminated.

    As the termination of even someone as prominent in the community as the city fire chief is a personnel matter, the public is not at all likely to know all the reasons or the specifics. Foremost, for me anyway, you want to respect the dignity and the confidentiality of the dismissed person as much as you can. Secondly, a public "he said, she said" benefits no one, including the employer - government or private. Finally, the legal department will tell you that there is always the possibility of being sued and it serves no purpose to say more than is necessary. PR will advise you, often specifically, how to respond and not to belabor the issue; stay on point and repeat when you must.

    There is a reason we do not have a great deal of information about the OP. I doubt we will for a long time. What we may hear will be one-sided. Don't look for the City of Atlanta to engage in a "he said, she said". The quickest was to stop the public discussion is not to respond not respond once the issue is concluded.

    Sorry for the text wall.
    Last edited by Risky Thicket; 01-09-15 at 05:45 PM.










    "When Faith preaches Hate, Blessed are the Doubters." - Amin Maalouf

    When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one individual who perceives a solution and is willing to take command. Very often, that person is crazy. ~Dave Barry



  6. #606
    Kinky
    tres borrachos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    New England
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:20 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    39,217

    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Risky Thicket View Post
    <snip>

    It has also been reported that he did not receive permission from the Mayor to write the book that he published. That appears to be a factor in the chief's suspension and dismissal.
    Yours was an excellent post Risky and I'm not disrespecting it by snipping in this response but that part I snipped out was a really interesting one. I wonder (and maybe this is out there) what would give the Mayor the right to dictate that someone can't write a book without his permission? I know there is no way in hell I would be able to do that but maybe government agencies have some sort of rule?
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

  7. #607
    Sage
    blackjack50's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Florida
    Last Seen
    Today @ 06:50 PM
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    25,352

    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by tacomancer View Post
    Because it declares a class of people which HR probably has a policy about (I dont know, but sexual orientation is becoming more and more a protected status by HR departments every day, so I think its a safe assumption that the city HR dept has it covered) to be evil or immoral. This creates a hostile or uncomfortable workplace environment.

    Thats really all there is to it in this case as far as I can see and its pretty cut and dry.
    Did he do it on his time? Or under the cities? I missed that part.
    The Crowd is not the sum of its parts.

  8. #608
    Sewer Rat
    Risky Thicket's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:09 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    23,803

    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Yours was an excellent post Risky and I'm not disrespecting it by snipping in this response but that part I snipped out was a really interesting one. I wonder (and maybe this is out there) what would give the Mayor the right to dictate that someone can't write a book without his permission? I know there is no way in hell I would be able to do that but maybe government agencies have some sort of rule?
    Purely conjecture: It was likely in his contract or in city policy that he was required to obtain prior approval. This is the tricky part. I would bet that the city never said that he could not write a book or even that book. From what I have read, however, Cochran did not appear to obtain written formal approval and likely did not provide a manuscript to the city before the book went to press. Therein, methinks, lies the rub.

    It wasn't that he couldn't publish or that he couldn't say whatever he wanted in the book, but rather that he referred to himself as the (current) fire chief and then at other points referenced his duties as (current) fire chief and, as we know, expressed some rather descriptive beliefs. It is in my opinion the combination was the problem. I'd envision the city reviewing the manuscript and saying "take out references to your current employment by the City of Atlanta" and the rest would be fine.










    "When Faith preaches Hate, Blessed are the Doubters." - Amin Maalouf

    When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one individual who perceives a solution and is willing to take command. Very often, that person is crazy. ~Dave Barry



  9. #609
    Kinky
    tres borrachos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    New England
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:20 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    39,217

    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Risky Thicket View Post
    Purely conjecture: It was likely in his contract or in city policy that he was required to obtain prior approval. This is the tricky part. I would bet that the city never said that he could not write a book or even that book. From what I have read, however, Cochran did not appear to obtain written formal approval and likely did not provide a manuscript to the city before the book went to press. Therein, methinks, lies the rub.

    It wasn't that he couldn't publish or that he couldn't say whatever he wanted in the book, but rather that he referred to himself as the (current) fire chief and then at other points referenced his duties as (current) fire chief and, as we know, expressed some rather descriptive beliefs. It is in my opinion the combination was the problem. I'd envision the city reviewing the manuscript and saying "take out references to your current employment by the City of Atlanta" and the rest would be fine.
    No I think you may be on to something. I found this in a few spots:

    The mayor said he decided to terminate Cochran not just because the fire chief didn’t consult him before publishing the book, but also spoke out about his suspension despite being told to remain quiet during the investigation into his leadership

    Reed: Atlanta fire chief terminated following book controversy | www.ajc.com

    Granted, it says "publishing" not "writing" but I'm trying to get my head around what would give the Mayor a right to prohibit his fire chief from publishing a book - any book.

    As to the 2nd part of Reed's comment, that I support. If Cochran was instructed not to comment during the investigation, and he disobeyed that order, that is subordination. I wonder why they (Atlanta people) didn't just say that. That in itself is cause for termination.
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

  10. #610
    Sewer Rat
    Risky Thicket's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:09 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    23,803

    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    No I think you may be on to something. I found this in a few spots:

    The mayor said he decided to terminate Cochran not just because the fire chief didn’t consult him before publishing the book, but also spoke out about his suspension despite being told to remain quiet during the investigation into his leadership

    Reed: Atlanta fire chief terminated following book controversy | www.ajc.com

    Granted, it says "publishing" not "writing" but I'm trying to get my head around what would give the Mayor a right to prohibit his fire chief from publishing a book - any book.

    As to the 2nd part of Reed's comment, that I support. If Cochran was instructed not to comment during the investigation, and he disobeyed that order, that is subordination. I wonder why they (Atlanta people) didn't just say that. That in itself is cause for termination.
    From the City's perspective why was it important that Cochran use the City of Atlanta in his book? How does doing so benefit the city? Does it imply that the City of Atlanta supports what Cochran wrote in his book?

    I can imagine at some point behind closed doors the mayor saying, "I don't give a damn if you write a book. I don't give a damn what it's about. But, you may not and you shall not invoke the City of Atlanta in any way, shape or form in the book. The City is not going to be seen in any way as endorsing YOUR opinions and beliefs. You are free to have them and express them, but you may not connect them to your current employment by the City of Atlanta."

    Cochran's expression of his religious beliefs had nothing to do with his job. He brought his job into the expression of his religious beliefs when he wrote the book and his job didn't like it.










    "When Faith preaches Hate, Blessed are the Doubters." - Amin Maalouf

    When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one individual who perceives a solution and is willing to take command. Very often, that person is crazy. ~Dave Barry



Page 61 of 72 FirstFirst ... 1151596061626371 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •