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Thread: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Risky Thicket View Post
    Walk down the hall today and ask your HR people to give you your company policies relating to harassment. I would imagine you'll find that what Cochran is alleged to have done at work would be covered in your company's policy. If you would for a local, state or federal government I would be very surprised if your HR people don't have fairly clear directives relating to Cochran's alleged actions.

    While you are talking to you HR folks ask them how or if the polices would apply to supervisors whose behavior is directed at subordinates.



    1. He was the main man and had many subordinates working for him.

    2. He was employed by the City of Atlanta. His income and his benefits were derived by the taxes of the citizens of the City of Atlanta.

    3. When he is working for the City of Atlanta he represents the city administration. When he is in uniform he represents the city administration.

    4. I'm going to go out on a limb here as I haven't lived in Atlanta (my hometown) for a while, but I'm fairly certain that it is not the policy of the city government to promote any religion in any manner. The City of Atlanta does not support any religion or any specific interpretation of any religion.

    5. City employees should know that if they work for the City of Atlanta they will not feel that there race, religion or atheism, disability, sexual orientation will in any way be a factor in their employment and/or advancement.

    Cochran apparently distribute the book at work. We don't know that but it appears that is one of the factors that lead to his suspension and/or dismissal. I say that because it has been reported that during he was direct his suspension that he would not distribute the book at work or on city property. That hints to at least some of what is likely involved.

    Employees did in fact complain. They either felt harassed or intimidated or coerced, we don't know exactly. We do know that Cochran's actions did in fact cause employees to report his behavior.

    It was reported by WSBTV.com:

    The Fire Chief for the City of Atlanta writes a book in which he compares homosexuals to baby rapers and goat ****ers and states that his beliefs come straight from the bible. Further in the book he states that his first priority as chief is run the department "to cultivate its culture to the glory of God".

    Danger! Danger! Danger!

    And then he hands the distributes the book to employees? I would imagine that any employee who read the book handed to him/her by the big chief is going to assume that "Chief Cocoran handed to me because he wants me to read his book about what he believes, and why. The chief is on a mission from God and God wants the chief to glorify God and instill his holy culture in the fire department. The chief doesn't cotton to gays. The chief gave me this book because he wants me to know how he feels. If I want to move up then it would be wise for me not to challenge the chief or his beliefs."

    Imagine if the book was given to supervisor - it likely was. Now you have supervisor who may well believe that the chief was saying something to the effect that "we don't want gays in the firehouse. I put it in writing and put my name on it and I gave it to you for a reason."
    I can't walk down the hall. I work out of my house and my HR department is in an office 1500 miles away.
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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I...I don't really know how to say this more clearly.

    From the very first post I made responding to you, and in this entire back and forth conversation we've had, I did not say the termination was justified or not. You keep responding to my posts in this line of conversation and writing a whole lot about whether or not he could be fired....which was not what my initial post was arguing or asking about at all.

    Once again, I'm going to try to be as clear as possible...

    In arguing your point about this issue you kept using a hypothetical that continually implied action between peers, coworkers, in the work place to compare to this situation. HOWEVER, this situation was not a case of peers, but of a supervisor to his subordinates.

    My question was why did you keep trying to compare this to a hypothetical situation of peers, rather than one more accurate to the situation where it's a supervisor and an employee.

    The reason I was asking is that in my entire professional life, I've never seen a business or government entity that tweets interactions between two peers and interactions between a boss and his subordinates as exactly the same. In all instances I've experienced, the boss/subordinate relationship has either additional scrutiny, additional rules, or additional level of expectations regarding how they function with each other.

    I am not suggesting that because it's a boss and a subordinate that inherently means his termination is just. I was suggesting that because it's a boss and a subordinate, the situation is DIFFERENT than one between two general coworkers which suggests peers. And thus I was asking why you kept seemingly coming at it from the peer perspective in your hypotheticals.

    If somehow in your experience or current job the relationships/interactions between peers is exactly the same in terms of scrutiny and rules/guidelines then that would be an acceptable answer as to why you seemingly felt it wasn't necessary to use a more accurate hypothetical situation. I can't really fathom such a work experience that functions that way, but if you say yours does that would be a legit answer.

    If your experience IS that there are differences between those two types of interactions...then my question is why did you keep talking about coworkers instead of a boss and his subordinates in your hypotheticals?
    Why do you only object to my "hypotheticals"? There are "hypotheticals" throughout this thread.

    Please comment on everyone's "hypotheticals" and ask everyone else to justify theirs and I will be more than happy to oblige you with the justification of my use of them. Thanks.
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    I think it comes down to if the manner and place of distribution come down to being interpreted by other employees, esp. subordinates, as a threat to their employment or advancement. I dont think you'd have a case if he did it once at the supermarket but more than once? Starts to sound deliberate.

    Content also matters. People are fired today over what's found on their social media pages. Teachers, judges, etc. So if someone posted or wrote something racist or homophobic that was in a position of authority....what then? It can be implied that these views will affect their professional judgement. (Correctly or incorrectly.) And then the city or job or organization can fire him to reduce liability of potential employee complaints of harassment or not getting promotions, etc.
    I was talking to one of my peers last night. He has 2 lines of reports (direct reports who have direct reports), whereas I have only 1 line (I have a team of Sales people who have no direct reports). I ran this scenario by him:

    If Amy (who works for one of his direct reports) came to you and she Jim (her boss - his direct report) was harassing her outside of work, in a supermarket, what do you do?

    He told me:

    1. We are obligated as managers to report a claim of harassment to our HR department if it takes place at work or on any company time anywhere or if the harassment outside of work involves a Quid Pro Quo or a direct threat to the employee's job (which I sort of already posted here)

    2. If the "harassment" in the supermarket did not involve a Quid Pro Quo or threat to employee's job, we as managers are NOT obligated to report it to HR - the person claiming in goes straight to HR

    3. "Harassment" outside of work assuming #2 is the case does not involve the employer and instead is a private matter for the law

    4. However, HR still needs to investigate the potential impact on ongoing job relationship between employee and harassing supervisor

    But none of this has to do with the Atlanta story anyway.

    And he agreed with me that it is VERY hard to fire an employee without documented cause, especially in a company like ours (publicly traded and global).
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin View Post
    1.)look it up religious discrimination is against the law. if it isn't prove it.
    1.) correct that is against the law, nobody said otherwise so your strawman fails
    your claim is still 100% false
    facts win again
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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    1.) correct that is against the law, nobody said otherwise so your strawman fails
    your claim is still 100% false
    facts win again
    nope no strawman he was fired for his religious views in a book he wrote outside of work for a bible study at his church.
    that is religious discrimination which you just admitted was against the law.

    so yes facts win.

    I don't think you know what a strawman is since you use it in every argument that you make when someone beats the daylights out of what you are saying.

    in order to fire him they have to prove that he was discriminating against people.
    so please prove that he had any record of discriminating against people.

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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Risky Thicket View Post
    My statement was in the context of the OP. I stand by that. My prior post and a few posts following put the above in context. You may have misunderstood.

    Cochran cannot express his religious beliefs at work. He certainly cannot do that as a supervisor. The law does not prevent him from being a Christian who works for the City of Atlanta, but he may not practice or expose his Christian beliefs in the workplace. There is a difference and distinction.
    Your 100% wrong please see any SCOTUS ruling on this. as long as he is not using that to demean and or discriminate against people he absolutely can.

    The same holds true for the Commonwealth of Virginia. In fact Virginia to my thinking was quite clear in its description of workplace harassment, which included sexual orientation and religion.
    Prove he harassed anyone.

    In essence religion stays at the door when you go to work for a government entity. No religion in the workplace. If you want to quietly pray in your office who is to know? If during lunch I want to shut my door and meditate without chanting, who is to know? Once it is a public expression of religious views a line is crossed, especially as a supervisor. Read the law and policies. Talk to your HR people be specific and ask them to be specific in their response to you.
    not according to the SCOTUS.

    I'm not playing gotcha, I am stating fact and I took the trouble and time to source my response.
    so far you have a lot of a opinion and very few facts.

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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin View Post
    1.)nope no strawman he was fired for his religious views in a book he wrote outside of work for a bible study at his church.
    that is religious discrimination which you just admitted was against the law.
    2.)so yes facts win.
    3.)I don't think you know what a strawman is since you use it in every argument that you make when someone beats the daylights out of what you are saying.
    4.)in order to fire him they have to prove that he was discriminating against people.
    5.) so please prove that he had any record of discriminating against people.
    1.) again facts and article prove you wrong he was not fired for his religious views, this fact will never change
    2.) correct and they prove the lie you posted wrong
    3.) do you have on example of this that can be backed up with facts?
    every article here proves you wrong and the definition of the word strawman also proves you wrong. Would you like a link to the definition? PLEASE say yes.

    remind us what you have on your side again besides "nu-huh" lmao
    theres not one respected poster here who is honest, educated and objective that buys your claims
    4.) also 100% false
    5.) this is not needed because this strawman has already been destroyed and proved false
    facts win again
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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    I can't walk down the hall. I work out of my house and my HR department is in an office 1500 miles away.
    how did you not know that risky

    and it's soooooo important to the debate, too

    sarcasm meter.jpg
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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    1.) again facts and article prove you wrong he was not fired for his religious views, this fact will never change
    yes he was according to the news article. he was fired for writing a bible study book. that is why he was fired, because what he wrote in there disagree with the gay agenda.
    they can't fire him for writing a book outside of work with permission more so concerning religious views.

    the problem I see here is that you are taking what the mayor said as gospel and that there is nothing else involved. you are attempting to frame the debate that the mayor is 100% right and that there is no other possibility that is why you are wrong.
    2.) correct and they prove the lie you posted wrong
    trying to spout your opinion as fact is well the only lie here. please prove that he discriminated against anyone.
    3.) do you have on example of this that can be backed up with facts?
    every article here proves you wrong and the definition of the word strawman also proves you wrong. Would you like a link to the definition? PLEASE say yes.
    yep this thread proves it. I have committed no strawman. he was fired for a book he wrote and the religious views that were contained inside that book because it offended
    a gay council member. it takes reading more than 1 article to figure out what is going on.

    remind us what you have on your side again besides "nu-huh" lmao
    that is your argument not mine. and pretty consistent with most of your posts that I see.

    theres not one respected poster here who is honest, educated and objective that buys your claims
    LOL there is another logical fallacy for you right there. there are plenty of honest, educated, and objective people on here that do agree with me.
    you are hardly any of those especially on this issue.

    4.) also 100% false
    100% true.
    5.) this is not needed because this strawman has already been destroyed and proved false
    facts win again
    let me know when you get some facts. I have already presented all the facts needed.

    1. he wrote a religious book outside of work for a bible study.
    2. he passed the book out to personal friends of his at work.
    3. someone in the department took a book and gave it to a gay council member.
    4. they didn't like what the bible had to say about sexual morality which is well none of their business.
    5. shortly after he was fired because of his religious beliefs. which is against the law.

    he had no record of discrimination before when he was fire Chief.
    he had no record of discrimination when he worked for President Obama
    he currently has no record of discrimination.

    he was soley fired for what the bible says about sexual morality. however if you have paid attention to non-liberal source the rest of the chapter goes into more than just homosexual's.
    it goes into what the bible says about sex outside of marriage and what that you should keep yourself holy and everything else.

    all 100% protected under the law.

    those are facts why don't you try some for once.

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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin View Post
    1.)yes he was according to the news article. he was fired for writing a bible study book. that is why he was fired, because what he wrote in there disagree with the gay agenda.
    they can't fire him for writing a book outside of work with permission more so concerning religious views.
    2.)the problem I see here is that you are taking what the mayor said as gospel and that there is nothing else involved. you are attempting to frame the debate that the mayor is 100% right and that there is no other possibility that is why you are wrong.
    3.)trying to spout your opinion as fact is well the only lie here. please prove that he discriminated against anyone.
    4.)yep this thread proves it. I have committed no strawman. he was fired for a book he wrote and the religious views that were contained inside that book because it offended
    a gay council member. it takes reading more than 1 article to figure out what is going on.
    5.)that is your argument not mine. and pretty consistent with most of your posts that I see.
    6.)LOL there is another logical fallacy for you right there. there are plenty of honest, educated, and objective people on here that do agree with me.
    7.) you are hardly any of those especially on this issue.
    8.)100% true.
    9.)let me know when you get some facts. I have already presented all the facts needed.
    10)he wrote a religious book outside of work for a bible study.
    11.) he passed the book out to personal friends of his at work.
    12.) someone in the department took a book and gave it to a gay council member.
    13.) they didn't like what the bible had to say about sexual morality which is well none of their business.
    14.) shortly after he was fired because of his religious beliefs. which is against the law.
    15.) he had no record of discrimination before when he was fire Chief.
    16.) he had no record of discrimination when he worked for President Obama
    17.) he currently has no record of discrimination.
    18.)he was soley fired for what the bible says about sexual morality. however if you have paid attention to non-liberal source the rest of the chapter goes into more than just homosexual's.
    it goes into what the bible says about sex outside of marriage and what that you should keep yourself holy and everything else.
    19.)all 100% protected under the law.
    20.)those are facts why don't you try some for once.
    1.) 100% false as the articles prove. you lie fails
    2.) also false and also BY DEFINITION another failed straw man. this NEVER happened you made it up. this lie fails
    3.) by definition ANOTHER failed strawman, qoute me saying he discriminated against people? you cant because i never did hence why your lie gets destroyed and your straw,an fails LMAO
    4.) facts disagree you just post TWO above
    5.) translation, you got nothing thats what we thought, let us know when you do have more than "nu-huh"
    6.) actually there are none, NOBODY honest educated and objective thinks this guy was fired just cause he wrote a book or just for his religious views because both of those are factually not true.
    7.) hey look failed insults, this is the typical of a person who has no honest, factual and intellectual path to take to defend the failed and proven wrong claims. im not surprised.
    8.) prove it then with facts we would LOVE to read it
    9.) where? what fact have you presented they have all been proven wrong by multiple posters and posts
    10.) meaningless
    11.) meaningless
    12.) maybe true
    13.) factually not true
    14.) factually not true and 100% false has already proven
    his religious views alone played no role in his termination LMAO
    15.) meaningless
    16.) meanignless
    17.) meaningless
    18.) 100% false as already proven by facts
    19.) also 100% false
    20.) except they are not LMAO
    I could do this all day your strawmen and posted lies wont fool anybody
    I also love how you listed some MEANINGLESS facts, you might as well say "yellow is a color, FACT!" because that has just as much relevance of some of the things you posted.

    the fact remains he was not simply fired for "writing a book" nor was he fired for "his religious views"
    those two lies have been destroyed

    and the biggest lie and strawman posted yet was was this "he was solely fired for what the bible says about sexual morality."
    that also is factually not true WOW


    if you disagree though as always, PLEASE in your next post use FACTS and prove your failed claims, i bet you dodge this request again
    post at least ONE fact that prove he was fired for simply writing a book and or his religious views, I cant wait to read it, thank you

    your post loses and facts win again
    Last edited by AGENT J; 01-09-15 at 12:43 PM.
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