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Thread: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

  1. #461
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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    If they want to material, what's the beef? What do you or anyone else care as long as they're not out there inciting violence, what law has been broken, and oh, for someone calling other posters out for strawmen, and analogies, I think you need to re-read what you just wrote cupcake..

    Tim-
    please feel free to point out anythign i called a strawman and use facts to prove its not, thank you
    also, by defintion, what i just wrote is FACTUALLY not a strawman lol
    facts win again
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  2. #462
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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeTrumps View Post
    I agree he was wrong to do it. but to fire him for it is absurd.
    Strangely, I kind of agree here. Outright termination seems like the wrong choice here...unless this is a politically appointed position (I honestly don't know). IF what is claimed to have been stated in the book WAS stated (in terms of the "cultivating" the "culture" comment), action to remove him from a supervisory role absolutely seems reasonable. But it would see to be more prudent to simply remove him from the chain of command rather than terminate him entirely.

    The one caveat to that is I don't know what their regulations and history is as it relates to publicly discussing an ongoing investigation; which may be a firing offense.

  3. #463
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    tacomancer's Avatar
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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    You are giving examples where the person has broken specified laws that have been upheld by the SCOTUS.

    The actual analogous scenario would be suspending an employee because you fear they MIGHT wear a campaign button to work.
    Quote Originally Posted by ludin View Post
    exactly. they have no evidence that he did anything wrong on the job. they fired him for a protected right. they are in major trouble.
    It seems previous court rulings would disagree with this assessment.

    Government as Employer: Free Expression Generally :: First Amendment--Religion and Expression :: US Constitution :: US Codes and Statutes :: US Law :: Justia

    In United Public Workers v. Mitchell,664 the Court answered in the affirmative. While the Court refused to consider the claims of persons who had not yet engaged in forbidden political activities, it ruled against a mechanical employee of the Mint who had done so. The Court’s opinion, by Justice Reed, recognized that the restrictions of political activities imposed by the Act did in some measure impair First Amendment and other constitutional rights,665 but it placed its decision upon the established principle that no right is absolute. The standard by which the Court judged the validity of the permissible impairment of First Amendment rights, however, was a due process standard of reasonableness.666 Thus, changes in the standards of judging incidental restrictions on expression suggested the possibility of a reconsideration of Mitchell.667 But a divided Court, reaffirming Mitchell, sustained the Act’s limitations upon political activity against a range of First Amendment challenges.668 It emphasized that the interest of the Government in forbidding partisan political activities by its employees was so substantial that it overrode the rights of those employees to engage in political activities and association;669

    ....


    662 53 Stat. 1147 9(a), (1939), as amended, 5 U.S.C. 7324(a)(2). By 54 Stat. 767 (1940), as amended, 5 U.S.C. 1501-08, the restrictions on political activity were extended to state and local governmental employees working in programs financed in whole or in part with federal funds. This provision was sustained against federalism challenges in Oklahoma v. Civil Service Comm'n, 330 U.S. 127 (1947). All the States have adopted laws patterned on the Hatch Act. See Broadrick v. Oklahoma, 413 U.S. 601, 604 (1973).
    Per the SCOTUS, government interest in maintaining a civil work place overrides the first amendment for employees. Which makes sense because in this context the governments role is employer, not securer of rights.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 01-08-15 at 04:58 PM.

  4. #464
    I'm kind of a big deal

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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    the bottom line is based on the info we know, this moron used very poor judgment to think this would have consequences, VERY POOR judgement

    also some facts
    he was NOT fired because of his religion which is the same as mine
    he was NOT fired based on his religious views/beliefs
    he was NOT fired for writing a book outside of work
    he was NOT fired for expressing views people simply disagree with
    hence his 1st amendment rights were not infringed


    unless theres MORE to this story that hasnt come out yet its basic common sense he was going to get canned, its nonsensical to even think otherwise
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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin View Post
    Did you not read my post I included it in there?
    I did. Nothing in your post countered the notion that he claimed his first priority as police chief was to cultivate a culture that glorifies god. To the contrary the link you just provided absolutely acknowledges that he DID state that.

    It goes on to try and explain why he thinks it shouldn't matter...but that's massively different than claiming he didn't say it.

    I don't know why you keep reposting the "uncleanness" quote since it has zero to do with my statements regarding his claims of his priorities on the job.

    you evidently didn't read my post at all.
    He had already contacted legal and got approval.
    This is rich considering I addressed that in the very post you're linking and yet you're acting like I didn't.

    For the third time...I've acknowledged that he claims to have already contacted legal and got the approval. I've acknowledge that in every instance that I've talked about the cities claim that he did not.

    His CLAIM that he did does not inherently disprove the cities CLAIM that he did not.

    Both are making conflicting claims. There is no evidence to verify his CLAIM or theirs. It's a "he said / she said" situation, unless you're aware of evidence I'm not and can link to it.

    Does that mean his CLAIM is incorrect? No it does not. But it does mean it is dishonest to claim as definitive fact that he was fired for stating his beliefs, when the city has publicly and clearly claimed otherwise, UNLESS you somehow also provide evidence that the cities claims are wholey fraudulent.

  6. #466
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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    So here's a question...if we're supposed to fire people in government positions every time they mention religious views or show religious materials...why is Obama still in Office? Or any of the other numerous congressmen/senators that have continuously talked about their religious stances? After all, separation of church and state according to so many here means that no government employee has a right to express their religious views will "on the clock".
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    You are giving examples where the person has broken specified laws that have been upheld by the SCOTUS.
    Oh I'm sorry...I could've swore you just stated:

    the government is required to protect the free speech of everyone, including those working for the government
    Is political speech not "free speech"?

    There was no caveats in your statement about protecting free speech, unless there's laws that disallow it.

    But thanks now for admitting the first step....you acknowledge the government absolutely CAN legally limit free speech in a government work place or by a government employee.

    Whether or not the legally could do it in this case is a different question....but up till now you've been presenting your argument as if that is simply not constitutioanlly allowed. Thanks for admitting it is.

  8. #468
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    tacomancer's Avatar
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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    So here's a question...if we're supposed to fire people in government positions every time they mention religious views or show religious materials...why is Obama still in Office? Or any of the other numerous congressmen/senators that have continuously talked about their religious stances? After all, separation of church and state according to so many here means that no government employee has a right to express their religious views will "on the clock".
    The issue was in creating a hostile work place per typical EEOC regulations, not religious views per se.

  9. #469
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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    So here's a question...if we're supposed to fire people in government positions every time they mention religious views or show religious materials...why is Obama still in Office? Or any of the other numerous congressmen/senators that have continuously talked about their religious stances? After all, separation of church and state according to so many here means that no government employee has a right to express their religious views will "on the clock".
    I dont think anybody condones that and if they are they are mistaken on how the law and rights work
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  10. #470
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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    the speed at which liberals are willing to destroy people's entire CAREERS based on religious beliefs(and the expression thereof) is really terrifying. It's just a big game to them.

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