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Thread: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

  1. #441
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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    So wait....

    Lets say a Supervisor wrote a book detailing his views on various things, specifically how Hitler and the Nazi regmine was correct. Part of said book equated Jews to conmen and thieves. It described them as some of the most vile creatures on the earth and an afront to the vision of Hitler. It then goes on to suggest that his first duty as a supervisor was to cultivate a culture in line with Hitler's views. He then gave said book to his subordinates

    Are we seriously suggesting that the supervisor's bosses shouldn't have legitimate cause to potentially suspend said supervisor to see if he was indeed "cultivating" such a culture with regards to any Jewish employees or applicants? Or possibly even to terminate and/or demote said supervisor due to the potential liability on the part of potential discrimination claims from Jewish employees and/or applicants?

    OR if you want to just focus on the religious aspect...

    Change it from Hitler and the Nazi Regime to the supervisor holding radical islamist views. In his book suggests Jews are an infidel, a wretched vile race and religion, that will be judged with scorn from Allah and should not be embraced. In it, he suggests his first duty as a supervisor is to cultivate a culture in line with Allah. He then gave said book to his subordinates.

    Again, same questions as above.

    I just can't fathom how that would or should be viewed as acceptable. I can't imagine how that would not create a significant liability on the business or agency. I can't imagine how that would not foster a very hostile and problematic work environment.

    It'd be one thing if it was JUST expressing those views. In such a case I can understand people possibly feeling uneasy in the work place, but at least in that such case there's no clear indication to lead one to believe the supervisor would let those views impact his PROFESSIONAL duties. However, when he's stating that his duty as Police Chief was to cultivate a culture in line with his gods it creates a reasonable question as to how his views are affecting his professional choices.
    Hence the existence of such laws and policies.

    From the Atlanta Journal-Constitution:

    Stephen Borders, presidents of the Atlanta Professional Firefighters union, said the union has not officially filed complaints over the matter, but he has heard from a number of employees about the book. Borders said the fire department has few, if any, openly gay firefighters.

    “Even the employees that reach out to us don’t want us to be involved in their complaint because they are afraid it will get out to their officers and their chief and they will be labeled and outed just by being concerned about how they’re treated,” he said.

    Borders said he hopes the controversy leads to a support group or office that works with employees who fear discrimination based on sexual orientation or religious views.

    “He can have whatever beliefs he wants, but the fact that he’s representing himself as a fire chief and bringing this into the fire department, to me that’s not the message we need to send to employees nor the citizens.”










    "When Faith preaches Hate, Blessed are the Doubters." - Amin Maalouf

    When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one individual who perceives a solution and is willing to take command. Very often, that person is crazy. ~Dave Barry



  2. #442
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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    In the same way that the actions against the chief is a gigantic "COME SUE US" sign planted on the Chief's front lawn.
    One potential litigation threat, from an individual without any concrete evidence that those making the decisions have a prejudice against the suggested protected class in this instance (religion) OR use believe it is their professional duty to cultivate said prejudices...

    Vs

    MULTIPLE potential litigation threats, from individuals with a tangible and concrete piece of evidence that said supervisor has such prejudices based on his religious views AND that he feels it's his duty to use his professional possition to cultivate a culture in line with his religious views.

    Both aren't good for the city...the second is absolutely worse.

    As I pointed out earlier, the SCOTUS is pretty clear on when and where hate speech can be enforced
    Good thing "hate speech" has nothing to do with this

    If the Chief fired a gay person for no actionable reason then they could indeed sue him for discrimination, but that would be a case for the courts. What the City of Atlanta has done is punish the Chief for a crime they think he might commit which is a violation of his first amendment freedoms.
    Again, no they hadn't.

    They suspended an individual while undergoing an investigation into alledged misconduct. This is something that happens routinely by government employers prior to any crime being proven to have been committed.

    Then they claim to have fired him for talking about an ongoing investigation, for publishing a book without proper authorization from the department (again, I note he disagrees with this assertion), and due to the liability issues associated with his statements.

    You may think they fired him because they disliked his religious speech; but the fact is that is not the official reason stated for his termination. And your continued attempt to paint your opinion and guess as to why he was fired as some kind of undisputable fact is not only dishonest but massively flawed.

  3. #443
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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    So wait....

    Lets say a Supervisor wrote a book detailing his views on various things, specifically how Hitler and the Nazi regmine was correct. Part of said book equated Jews to conmen and thieves. It described them as some of the most vile creatures on the earth and an afront to the vision of Hitler. It then goes on to suggest that his first duty as a supervisor was to cultivate a culture in line with Hitler's views. He then gave said book to his subordinates
    Thread officially Godwined! And no, if that person can't be shown to ever perform their duties in such a way as they were discriminatory against Jews then they shouldn't lose their job. As is the age old refrain: The First Amendment doesn't only to protect speech you like.


    Are we seriously suggesting that the supervisor's bosses shouldn't have legitimate cause to potentially suspend said supervisor to see if he was indeed "cultivating" such a culture with regards to any Jewish employees or applicants? Or possibly even to terminate and/or demote said supervisor due to the potential liability on the part of potential discrimination claims from Jewish employees and/or applicants?
    Noted how you said "potentially" to squirm out of the very real and definite negative action taken in this case. We aren't talking potentials here. But the "potential" is certainly there IF they can show that the person actually violated EEOC regulations in his hiring and firing actions.


    OR if you want to just focus on the religious aspect...

    Change it from Hitler and the Nazi Regime to the supervisor holding radical islamist views. In his book suggests Jews are an infidel, a wretched vile race and religion, that will be judged with scorn from Allah and should not be embraced. In it, he suggests his first duty as a supervisor is to cultivate a culture in line with Allah. He then gave said book to his subordinates.

    Again, same questions as above.
    Again, it is protected speech whether you like it or not.

    I just can't fathom how that would or should be viewed as acceptable. I can't imagine how that would not create a significant liability on the business or agency. I can't imagine how that would not foster a very hostile and problematic work environment.
    Firing that person creates a significant liability for the business or agency. Businesses have more leeway though as they are not a government agency and not required to protect speech like a government agency is.

    It'd be one thing if it was JUST expressing those views. In such a case I can understand people possibly feeling uneasy in the work place, but at least in that such case there's no clear indication to lead one to believe the supervisor would let those views impact his PROFESSIONAL duties. However, when he's stating that his duty as Police Chief was to cultivate a culture in line with his gods it creates a reasonable question as to how his views are affecting his professional choices.
    But the City didn't bother to prove that the beliefs had in any way impacted his professional duties! They fired him preemptively which is a violation of the First Amendment.

    If it was shown that you neo-Nazi or radical Muslim or the this chief had actually let their personal beliefs impact their hiring and firing and personnel decisions then he should be fired immediately because he would then be in violation of the law. The state can't punish people for what you think they MIGHT do.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin View Post
    Good thing he didn't say that.
    He didn't? What are you basing this off of? Because I've seen numerous stories reporting that he absolutely did state that, including quotes which suggests a direct lift from his book.

    Do you have anything of substance to verify that said reports are fraudulent and that his book does not contain such a claim?

    As I suggested in another post...sans that claim, my view on the matter changes.

    Also, I noted that he disputed the cities claim that he did not get the proper approval in the proper amount of time. That doesn't change the fact that the city is claiming that as one of the reasons of his termination. Currently it is a "he said/she said" situation unless he can provide some kind of evidence of himself going to them for authorization and recieving it.

    I don't know if he did. I don't know if he didn't. But to suggest definitively he was fired for his religious views when the city has claimed multiple reasons for his termination OTHER than his religious views is simply a factually dishonest statement. My pointing out their claim was not to suggest their claim was legit, but merely to suggest that claiming WHY he was fired as some kind of undisputable fact...when the "why" you're claiming doesn't actually match what the city has officially claimed...is a misrepresentation.

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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by whysoserious View Post
    How could you possibly not know that there are laws against discrimination in the work place? And if you do know about them, how could he possibly manage without discriminating when holding those types of views?

    Are you telling me you think a gay person would have a fair shake at a job in his fire house?
    How could you possibly not know that a law doesn't mean a damn thing if it violates the Constitution?

    Are you telling me a white male conservative would have a fair shake at a job in a government office run by non-whites who clearly were leftists and were lukewarm at best about whites? Or maybe, as in graduate school admissions, discrimination is only impermissible when the victim is a member of some grievance group so-called liberals have the crying towel out for.

  6. #446
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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by tacomancer View Post
    I was pointing out that your can't treat government as an entity and that government employment is the same as private employment in terms of following eeoc regulations. Your interpretation of my statements seems to be from somewhere having nothing to do with me.
    No, government and private employment is not the same in this case since the Private employer is not required to protect free speech of its employees while the government is required to protect the free speech of everyone, including those working for the government.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

  7. #447
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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    No, government and private employment is not the same in this case since the Private employer is not required to protect free speech of its employees while the government is required to protect the free speech of everyone, including those working for the government.
    You're gonna have to cite case law for that one, heh. If you are correct, its going to be the best FOIA request ever because it completely invalidates all secret clearance and NDA clauses the government has currently in effect.

  8. #448
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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Sure. And so would any Muslim. Thank you for agreeing with us.
    I agree he was wrong to do it. but to fire him for it is absurd. what if he was the best, most qualified fire chief in the city? what if your house burns down tomorrow because of an incompetent replacement?
    suddenly this man's "crime" wouldn't seem so bad.

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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    How could you possibly not know that a law doesn't mean a damn thing if it violates the Constitution?

    Are you telling me a white male conservative would have a fair shake at a job in a government office run by non-whites who clearly were leftists and were lukewarm at best about whites? Or maybe, as in graduate school admissions, discrimination is only impermissible when the victim is a member of some grievance group so-called liberals have the crying towel out for.
    Are you really trying to say a white male has a disadvantage getting a government job?
    Ted Cruz is the dumbest person alive.

  10. #450
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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    And mine as well. There is nothing inequitable about it. Everyone is free of the imposition of every other person's religious beliefs, including atheism. If you permit one religion you must permit all.
    There is no right to be shielded from the expression of beliefs that one finds disagreeable. Such a “right” cannot possibly coexist with the rights which the First Amendment affirms. The First Amendment, being an actual law, and, in fact, being part of the highest law in this nation, certainly takes precedence over wrong-wing fantasies about using the force of law to censor the expression of beliefs that they do not like.
    The five great lies of the Left Wrong:
    We can be Godless and free. • “Social justice” through forced redistribution of wealth. • Silencing religious opinions counts as “diversity”. • Freedom without moral and personal responsibility. • Civilization can survive the intentional undermining of the family.

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