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Thread: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

  1. #431
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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    No it isn't. That is not in any way a standard workplace policy. I have worked in state, local and federal government for 30 years and NEVER has what you stated been the policy of the workplace. If that is the policy in the city of Atlanta then it is both abnormal and illegal.
    Oh, really? Did you retire in the early 1960s? Tell us what state and local governments.

    How is the policy of the City of Atlanta "abnormal and illegal". Spell it out for us.

    The attorneys working for the City of Atlanta participated in the 30 day investigation of Chief Cochran and advised the city administration as to what violations occurred, what actions could be taken and what actions could be legally upheld. That is the way it works. I've been that and done there a few times. I have participated directly in the process and have worked with government attorneys and human resources. It is a grave process. It would surprise the hell out of me if the city's decisions were not carefully deliberated. Apparently you know more than the rest of us, please share.










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  2. #432
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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by whysoserious View Post
    I don't think you could wear a thong to work, even if some random Bible passage said you should. Meanwhile, even the Pope has said: "If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?”
    Well, first, is the Chief Catholic? If not then what difference does it make what the Pope says? Second, is there any evidence that the Chief managed his gay employees any differently than his heterosexual employees? THAT would be the case the City could could have fired him for. If they never fired him it would because his personal beliefs never demonstrably interfered wit his public duty.

    Are you so sure your religion requires you to hate homosexuals?
    My religion doesn't require me to hate homosexuals, but then my religion also separates the individual and the sin (I'm Catholic). Love for all humanity doesn't mean we have to love what all humans do.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    That was more your point than it was mine. You were the one who tried to foist responsibility off of the local authorities onto the big monolithic structure of federal regulation as if the city's hands were tied... being just a cog in said monolithic regulatory machine.
    I was pointing out that your can't treat government as an entity and that government employment is the same as private employment in terms of following eeoc regulations. Your interpretation of my statements seems to be from somewhere having nothing to do with me.

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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Well, that's rather in dispute.

    From what I've been able to gather it seems he was suspended after giving his subordinates a copy of a book containing some of his beliefs, and seemingly at least one of those employees went to his superiors to complain about him distributing his book to his subordinates. This suspension was seemingly to look into if there was a potential issue regarding the cities anti-discrimination laws.
    He was suspended because someone gave one of the only gay council members the book. they chose to ignore the context of the book. The people he gave it to at work were people he had a personal relationship with.

    it appears that someone else took one of the books probably without permission.

    This was due to a passage in his book which suggested his first priority as the fire chief was "to cultivate its culture to the glory of God". When you then proceed to equate homosexuals...a protected status by Atlanta's anti-discrimination laws....to those who engage in pedorasty and beastiality (both illegal acts) after stating that your top priority on the job is to cultivate a culture that fits your religious views then it reasonably sets off alarms of potential anti-discrimination issues.
    Good thing he didn't say that. yes the bible says to go out and to sow seeds of God's glory in all that you do.
    he has never had a complaint of discrimination.

    He was reportedly fired for talking about an ongoing investigation while on suspension, publishing the book without authorization which supposedly is required by his employment contract (the former part of that he disputes), and because of the potential liability that the city of Atlanta would face keeping him employed in a supervisory role.
    all of that is not true either.
    1. He gave a personal testimony in church.
    2. he had already contacted the legal department to see if it was ok for him to write the book.

    Cochran said the director of Atlanta’s ethics office had not only given him permission to write the book, but to also mention in his biography that he was the city’s fire chief.

    Him remaining in any kind of supervisory position would be a gigantic "COME SUE US" sign for any homosexual employee who was unhappy with shifts/promotions/treatment or any homosexual applicant who was not offered a job....as they could point to this individuals book, his statements about homosexuality, his claim that his job as chief is to cultivate a culture pleasing to god, and alledge then that it was his efforts to create such a culture that led to their treatment.
    unless he was actually discriminating of which there is no evidence that he was.

    The book includes this passage: “Uncleanness—whatever is opposite of purity; including sodomy, homosexuality, lesbianism, pederasty, bestiality, all other forms of sexual perversion.”

    Cochran said the language he used was lifted directly from biblical text.

    “My intent was not to hurt anyone. I wrote straight from the words of the Bible,” he said.


    which would make sense. it was a bible study book and the chapter in question was dealing with what the bible says about sexual morality.
    the problem is that we have thrown logic and commonsense out with window in exchange for what people feel.

    so we have to bow down to every whim or want of someone that feels that they have been insulted.
    for those people all I have to say is cry me a river build me a bridge and get over it.

  5. #435
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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Risky Thicket View Post
    Oh, really? Did you retire in the early 1960s? Tell us what state and local governments.
    City of Fairfax VA, The State of Virginia, the Department of the Interior and the Department of Treasury. And no, my employment dates back to the 1980s and is ongoing. I attended a Department of Treasury Christmas party just a few weeks ago.

    How is the policy of the City of Atlanta "abnormal and illegal". Spell it out for us.
    It infringes on the individual's right to free speech. As I have already pointed out, in SCOTUS case law the criteria for limiting "hate speech" is very clear, and the Chief's book does not meet those criteria.



    The attorneys working for the City of Atlanta participated in the 30 day investigation of Chief Cochran and advised the city administration as to what violations occurred, what actions could be taken and what actions could be legally upheld. That is the way it works. I've been that and done there a few times. I have participated directly in the process and have worked with government attorneys and human resources. It is a grave process. It would surprise the hell out of me if the city's decisions were not carefully deliberated. Apparently you know more than the rest of us, please share.
    I realize that the City went through the motions to fire the Chief, that doesn't mean their decision was correct or that it would hold up in court.

    The irony is that the City has fired an employee for stating his religious beliefs for fear that he might take negative action on an employee for their sexual orientation. So, in the end, the city violated EEOC regulations to prevent a potential violation of EEOC regulations.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    100% YES. But then some people are simply more aware that infringement of First Amendment rights on anyone is infringement on First Amendment rights of everyone. Others are more self centered and choose to wait until they disagree with the government enforcers.
    So wait....

    Lets say a Supervisor wrote a book detailing his views on various things, specifically how Hitler and the Nazi regmine was correct. Part of said book equated Jews to conmen and thieves. It described them as some of the most vile creatures on the earth and an afront to the vision of Hitler. It then goes on to suggest that his first duty as a supervisor was to cultivate a culture in line with Hitler's views. He then gave said book to his subordinates

    Are we seriously suggesting that the supervisor's bosses shouldn't have legitimate cause to potentially suspend said supervisor to see if he was indeed "cultivating" such a culture with regards to any Jewish employees or applicants? Or possibly even to terminate and/or demote said supervisor due to the potential liability on the part of potential discrimination claims from Jewish employees and/or applicants?

    OR if you want to just focus on the religious aspect...

    Change it from Hitler and the Nazi Regime to the supervisor holding radical islamist views. In his book suggests Jews are an infidel, a wretched vile race and religion, that will be judged with scorn from Allah and should not be embraced. In it, he suggests his first duty as a supervisor is to cultivate a culture in line with Allah. He then gave said book to his subordinates.

    Again, same questions as above.

    I just can't fathom how that would or should be viewed as acceptable. I can't imagine how that would not create a significant liability on the business or agency. I can't imagine how that would not foster a very hostile and problematic work environment.

    It'd be one thing if it was JUST expressing those views. In such a case I can understand people possibly feeling uneasy in the work place, but at least in that such case there's no clear indication to lead one to believe the supervisor would let those views impact his PROFESSIONAL duties. However, when he's stating that his duty as Police Chief was to cultivate a culture in line with his gods it creates a reasonable question as to how his views are affecting his professional choices.

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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin View Post
    I already have religion is a protect class. you seem to be ignoring this fact.
    Not at work and certainly not in a government workplace including Atlanta.

    yes that was in the book BECAUSE IT WAS A STUDY GUIDE FOR THE BIBLE. that is what the BIBLE SAYS. in a chapter about sexual morality. boy for someone that thinks he knows it all you know nothing.
    And that related to his job how for the City of Atlanta?

    that is your view point. he spoke out against homosexuality and gay marriage while also speaking out against sex outside of marriage among other things. he should have his life ruined. because a few people get their panties in a bunch.
    He violated conditions of his employment with the City of Atlanta.

    I already have a job and trust me I see HR violations everywhere however guess what people I work with don't wear their friggen heart on their sleeve.
    PS by posting this on a forum you should be fired. you are disparaging against religious people and their view point.
    No religion in the workplace. None. Be religious all you want outside work.

    he didn't express them at work he expressed them outside of work.
    what part of that don't you understand or don't comprehend?
    Chief Cochran distributed his book, that he wrote, with is name on it, regarding his religious views, and stated that his primary job as fire chief was to cultivate the culture of the glory of God within the fire department. He distributed that book in the workplace, on city property to subordinates.

    I guess the whole thing. the city violated his rights to express his religious views outside of work and fired him over it. I hope he sues.
    religious discrimination is against the law.
    Stop guessing, show me. Give me the reason he was suspended and then fired and source the City of Atlanta as your documentation. Otherwise you are indeed guessing.










    "When Faith preaches Hate, Blessed are the Doubters." - Amin Maalouf

    When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one individual who perceives a solution and is willing to take command. Very often, that person is crazy. ~Dave Barry



  8. #438
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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by MrsMartinBlank View Post
    It has nothing to do with the viewpoint - it has to do with a person with hiring/firing/promotion/pay authority using that power over subordinates in the workplace to promote any viewpoint about religion - yeah the law is pretty settled on that one.
    right, just as handing out atheist pamphlets promotes a viewpoint on religion. so any atheist would have to be fired for doing such a thing. right?

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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeTrumps View Post
    right, just as handing out atheist pamphlets promotes a viewpoint on religion. so any atheist would have to be fired for doing such a thing. right?
    Sure. And so would any Muslim. Thank you for agreeing with us.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

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  10. #440
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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeTrumps View Post
    right, just as handing out atheist pamphlets promotes a viewpoint on religion. so any atheist would have to be fired for doing such a thing. right?
    by rights they should

    The only exception I can think of is if the mission of the organization is atheistic (which would probably mean its a nonprofit)

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