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Thread: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

  1. #371
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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    My take?

    On the city, state, or federal rules regarding groups granted civil protection against work place discrimination.

    Things like Race and Religion have long since been on the list.

    For many places now, Sexual Orientation is on that list.

    If somehow "Puppy Breeding Choice" becomes a protected status then you may have a leg to stand on for acting against someone who's doing actions, in the work place, that leads to a hostile/offensive work environment for people based on their Puppy Breeding Choice.

    EVERYTHING is a slippery slope. Every single law we have on the books, every single policy any company puts forward all of it; it's all a slippery slope. We decide "where it stops" continually as a society at all levels. Simply pointing to the slippery slope and saying "where does it stop" is never a good reason to NOT do something. If you can't put forward an argument as to why it SHOULD stop at a particular point, and all you have left is "where does it stop/slippery slope", that should be a good indication that the answer to "where it should stop" is "not here".
    Yes I already know all of that. It has nothing to do with what I posted to Tacomancer. The discussion was about perception of harassment. I don't recall myself posting about discrimination. And the Atlanta story was not about discrimination,
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

  2. #372
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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Your claim about what the Constitution protects is not very accurate. I already mentioned here that firing government employees--in contrast to employees who work for private firms at will-- may involve several constitutional issues. These may include the First Amendment freedoms of speech and religion.
    Please, tell me how government employees are treated differently than private employees when it comes to workplace vs private rights. From my experiences in the military you actually walk a much tighter rope working for government than you do public entities.

    I doubt your conclusion that the black employee in my hypothetical could "certainly" be fired for that statement. He might, or not, but it's far from certain that a single statement in private conversation by a government would do enough to create a hostile work environment to justify firing him.
    If he told someone that "we should get rid of every Jew" and the person told HR he would be fired. That's creating a hostile work environment and there's no employee handbook private or public that allows that. It's pretty hard to argue against what you believe but the fact is that kind of speech isn't tolerated.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

  3. #373
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    tacomancer's Avatar
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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Yes I already know all of that. It has nothing to do with what I posted to Tacomancer. The discussion was about perception of harassment. I don't recall myself posting about discrimination. And the Atlanta story was not about discrimination,
    I honestly think its always going to be context based as we are dealing with very personal and strongly held beliefs and in many cases beliefs that multiple people hold are noncompatible (gay person versus person who beliefs homosexuality is evil for example) so while I am no HR expert, my understanding is its going to have to be based on context and perception and of course the HR dept's mandate to protect the company (which is what they really do, they arent there for employees really).

    My brain likes math and rules, its not something im good at and I may have gotten my interpretation wrong too. But thats my take.

    I just try to keep my mouth shut in practice unless I am dealing with a coworker who I know I am safe with.

  4. #374
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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    So what you're saying is the termination was just because he was the boss?
    I...I don't really know how to say this more clearly.

    From the very first post I made responding to you, and in this entire back and forth conversation we've had, I did not say the termination was justified or not. You keep responding to my posts in this line of conversation and writing a whole lot about whether or not he could be fired....which was not what my initial post was arguing or asking about at all.

    Once again, I'm going to try to be as clear as possible...

    In arguing your point about this issue you kept using a hypothetical that continually implied action between peers, coworkers, in the work place to compare to this situation. HOWEVER, this situation was not a case of peers, but of a supervisor to his subordinates.

    My question was why did you keep trying to compare this to a hypothetical situation of peers, rather than one more accurate to the situation where it's a supervisor and an employee.

    The reason I was asking is that in my entire professional life, I've never seen a business or government entity that tweets interactions between two peers and interactions between a boss and his subordinates as exactly the same. In all instances I've experienced, the boss/subordinate relationship has either additional scrutiny, additional rules, or additional level of expectations regarding how they function with each other.

    I am not suggesting that because it's a boss and a subordinate that inherently means his termination is just. I was suggesting that because it's a boss and a subordinate, the situation is DIFFERENT than one between two general coworkers which suggests peers. And thus I was asking why you kept seemingly coming at it from the peer perspective in your hypotheticals.

    If somehow in your experience or current job the relationships/interactions between peers is exactly the same in terms of scrutiny and rules/guidelines then that would be an acceptable answer as to why you seemingly felt it wasn't necessary to use a more accurate hypothetical situation. I can't really fathom such a work experience that functions that way, but if you say yours does that would be a legit answer.

    If your experience IS that there are differences between those two types of interactions...then my question is why did you keep talking about coworkers instead of a boss and his subordinates in your hypotheticals?

  5. #375
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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Handing out religious materials to subordinates in a public position, on the job.
    Sbow where he did it on the job?
    32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
    Matt. 10:32-33

  6. #376
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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    That's what I'm looking for. I'm seeing the use of "forcing religion on subordinates" without any evidence of that being the case. IMO him "forcing" his religion on his subordinates would involve requiring them to pray at work, participate in his church teachings while on the job, requiring them to live outside of work in the lifestyle he demands, requiring them to read religious materials on the job, requiring them to deny service to people he doesn't want served, etc. None of this happened.
    The point has been reached where the pervert-rights movement is very happy to force it's sick lifestyle on the public as a whole, and is being allowed to do so; as evidenced by the cases where bakers, florists, caterers, photographers and such, have been successfully prosecuted for refusing to participate in sick homosexual mockeries of weddings.

    So now, when a man writes a book which expresses support for decent moral values, this same man is falsely accused of “forcing his beliefs” on others, and fired for it.

    Very clearly, this is a sign of a diseased society, that is willfully favoring evil over good.
    The five great lies of the Left Wrong:
    We can be Godless and free. • “Social justice” through forced redistribution of wealth. • Silencing religious opinions counts as “diversity”. • Freedom without moral and personal responsibility. • Civilization can survive the intentional undermining of the family.

  7. #377
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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Yes I already know all of that. It has nothing to do with what I posted to Tacomancer. The discussion was about perception of harassment. I don't recall myself posting about discrimination. And the Atlanta story was not about discrimination,
    I've already stated I'm still not fully well read on the Atlanta situation...but from the OP's story

    Mr. Reed had suspended Mr. Cochran for a month without pay in November, opening an investigation into whether Mr. Cochran’s authorship and distribution of the book to workers violated the city’s nondiscrimination policies
    At a news conference, Mr. Reed said that Mr. Cochran’s “personal religious beliefs are not the issue.” But Atlanta’s nondiscrimination policy, the mayor added, is “nonnegotiable.”
    It was my understanding that typically harassment and discrimination policies often are intertwined and typically cover similar groups or issues. Specifically in terms of harassment policies/laws that are dealing with creating hostile work environments based on specific things (gender, race, religion, etc).

  8. #378
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    Bob Blaylock's Avatar
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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    and even tho bob blaylock and i are aligned in our objection to this wrongful termination, please recognize that we do NOT oppose it for the same reasons! i find his wanting to retain the chief because he has such hardline religious viewpoints to be the most stupid defense of the man that could possibly be conceived
    You seem to be mistaken about my motives. I will point out that earlier in this discussion someone tried to bait me into agreeing that a supervisor should be fired for writing and handing out literature that is critical of my own religious beliefs; and I did not take that bait. The First Amendment rights apply equally to all beliefs and opinions, regardless of whether I agree with them or not. In fact, the more disagreeable an opinion, the more important the protections of the First Amendment become. No protection is needed for a belief that everyone finds agreeable, as nobody would want to suppress such a belief.
    The five great lies of the Left Wrong:
    We can be Godless and free. • “Social justice” through forced redistribution of wealth. • Silencing religious opinions counts as “diversity”. • Freedom without moral and personal responsibility. • Civilization can survive the intentional undermining of the family.

  9. #379
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    tacomancer's Avatar
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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock View Post
    You seem to be mistaken about my motives. I will point out that earlier in this discussion someone tried to bait me into agreeing that a supervisor should be fired for writing and handing out literature that is critical of my own religious beliefs; and I did not take that bait. The First Amendment rights apply equally to all beliefs and opinions, regardless of whether I agree with them or not. In fact, the more disagreeable an opinion, the more important the protections of the First Amendment become. No protection is needed for a belief that everyone finds agreeable, as nobody would want to suppress such a belief.
    an employment agreement between an employer and employee to HR policies is not a first amendment issue but a private contract.

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    Re: Atlanta Ousts Fire Chief Who Has Antigay Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I've already stated I'm still not fully well read on the Atlanta situation...but from the OP's story





    It was my understanding that typically harassment and discrimination policies often are intertwined and typically cover similar groups or issues. Specifically in terms of harassment policies/laws that are dealing with creating hostile work environments based on specific things (gender, race, religion, etc).
    The only argument for a non-discrimination policy would be that he was fired for giving some people copies of his book but not everybody. That is not why he was fired.

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