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Thread: As gay marriages begin in Florida, Supreme Court is set to meet on issue

  1. #221
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    Re: As gay marriages begin in Florida, Supreme Court is set to meet on issue

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Those things you mentioned are but a small bit of what marriage covers. And none of them are as secure as legal marriage.
    What do you mean "secure"? How is marriage more "secure" than say a Will?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    And much of that stuff costs extra money if you want something besides a very basic contract. And it still would be more than a single document. Less efficient.
    It may or may not be - factually you cannot say it would be more than a single document because no one has tried it yet - a nice opinion though.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  2. #222
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    Re: As gay marriages begin in Florida, Supreme Court is set to meet on issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    What do you mean "secure"? How is marriage more "secure" than say a Will?

    It may or may not be - factually you cannot say it would be more than a single document because no one has tried it yet - a nice opinion though.
    You have nothing to try it with and if the government still had to recognize it then it wouldn't change anything. What exactly would be changed? Who is paying for the document to be made? What would the point of that be? The government would still decide which ones it recognized as legal relationships, just as they decide what is and isn't recognized as a legal agreement between people.

    Legal relationships are established by marriage, just as they are established by birth certificates. Do you think a private birth certificate is going to be automatically recognized by the government?
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  3. #223
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    Re: As gay marriages begin in Florida, Supreme Court is set to meet on issue

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    You have nothing to try it with and if the government still had to recognize it then it wouldn't change anything. What exactly would be changed?
    Hold on - you haven't explained what you meant by "secure". You used that as a qualifier and did not explain it.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Who is paying for the document to be made?
    The same people who pay the marriage license fee they pay today when the government processes the marriage form.
    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    What would the point of that be?
    Paying the private company to process the license - work is still being done whether or not it's the government doing it or the private sector.
    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    The government would still decide which ones it recognized as legal relationships, just as they decide what is and isn't recognized as a legal agreement between people.
    That's status quo.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Legal relationships are established by marriage, just as they are established by birth certificates. Do you think a private birth certificate is going to be automatically recognized by the government?
    Sure. Why wouldn't it? The government accepts all types of official documents from the private sector today. Why would a marriage license or birth certificate be any different?
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  4. #224
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    Re: As gay marriages begin in Florida, Supreme Court is set to meet on issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Hold on - you haven't explained what you meant by "secure". You used that as a qualifier and did not explain it.

    The same people who pay the marriage license fee they pay today when the government processes the marriage form.
    Paying the private company to process the license - work is still being done whether or not it's the government doing it or the private sector.
    That's status quo.

    Sure. Why wouldn't it? The government accepts all types of official documents from the private sector today. Why would a marriage license or birth certificate be any different?
    Because they aren't. You seem to think that this is something that people want as well. It isn't.

    As for being more secure, it is due to the fact that a marriage license, that particular document, sets up the legal relationship, that then takes precedent over other legal relationships or in some cases other legal documentation. And that is held in legal precedent. Also there is security in the process to obtain and file a marriage certificate with the government, helping to prevent fraud.

    And you still haven't shown how it would be better privatized, especially since all the same laws concerning spouses and marriages and those relationships would be in place. Why make a change just to make it without any purpose, especially when that change is almost certainly going to cost couples more money with no benefit to them nor to even society.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  5. #225
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    Re: As gay marriages begin in Florida, Supreme Court is set to meet on issue

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Because they aren't. You seem to think that this is something that people want as well. It isn't.
    Whether people want it or not is not relevant to my posts - I'm looking at the possibility of the private sector taking over this function. Popularity is a different discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    As for being more secure, it is due to the fact that a marriage license, that particular document, sets up the legal relationship, that then takes precedent over other legal relationships or in some cases other legal documentation. And that is held in legal precedent. Also there is security in the process to obtain and file a marriage certificate with the government, helping to prevent fraud.
    Most legal documents carry a state seal, require a witness signature and a notary seal, which seem good enough today for affidavits, oaths, applications, deeds, and contracts.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    And you still haven't shown how it would be better privatized, especially since all the same laws concerning spouses and marriages and those relationships would be in place. Why make a change just to make it without any purpose, especially when that change is almost certainly going to cost couples more money with no benefit to them nor to even society.
    That was already addressed - lower cost, competition and slimmer margins will lower the cost vs. government doing the same thing. Privatization does not have to benefit society - government certainly doesn't benefit society all the time or even most of the time, even though government sells itself that way.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  6. #226
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    Re: As gay marriages begin in Florida, Supreme Court is set to meet on issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Whether people want it or not is not relevant to my posts - I'm looking at the possibility of the private sector taking over this function. Popularity is a different discussion.

    Most legal documents carry a state seal, require a witness signature and a notary seal, which seem good enough today for affidavits, oaths, applications, deeds, and contracts.

    That was already addressed - lower cost, competition and slimmer margins will lower the cost vs. government doing the same thing. Privatization does not have to benefit society - government certainly doesn't benefit society all the time or even most of the time, even though government sells itself that way.
    You haven't shown any of these things would occur, particularly for something like a marriage license which only now costs less than $100 at its most expensive, despite it being run by the government, and it is less than the cost of most legal documents offered privately that do much less in most places.

    Changing to privatizing something should have some shown benefit, not just be done to do it. It is stupid to do it just to do it.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  7. #227
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    Re: As gay marriages begin in Florida, Supreme Court is set to meet on issue

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    You haven't shown any of these things would occur, particularly for something like a marriage license which only now costs less than $100 at its most expensive, despite it being run by the government, and it is less than the cost of most legal documents offered privately that do much less in most places.
    Go back and read the links I've posted. I cannot say for sure that the same things would occur if, in some future, marriage licenses are privatized but as I already stated, if privatization is done properly - the outlook is promising.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Changing to privatizing something should have some shown benefit, not just be done to do it. It is stupid to do it just to do it.
    I agree. Private business would not take it on if there wasn't a cost benefit analysis to go along with it.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: As gay marriages begin in Florida, Supreme Court is set to meet on issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Go back and read the links I've posted. I cannot say for sure that the same things would occur if, in some future, marriage licenses are privatized but as I already stated, if privatization is done properly - the outlook is promising.

    I agree. Private business would not take it on if there wasn't a cost benefit analysis to go along with it.
    None of your links applied to something like marriage. Government housing is not comparable to marriage, at all.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  9. #229
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    Re: As gay marriages begin in Florida, Supreme Court is set to meet on issue

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    None of your links applied to something like marriage.
    That makes sense because privatization of marriage licenses hasn't been done yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Government housing is not comparable to marriage, at all.
    You're kidding. Really!?
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  10. #230
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    Re: As gay marriages begin in Florida, Supreme Court is set to meet on issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    1.)I'm not LEGALLY married though I've been with someone I call my wife now for 13 years.
    2.) As I've already stated, government isn't involved unless there's a dispute.
    3.) If there's no dispute there is no government involvement.
    4.)How such an easy concept eludes you is quite amusing.
    1.) good for you thats your choice and to each thier own you dont have to be, isnt that awesome you have that freedom
    2.) false, theres a contract that involved government just for starters
    3.) false, also false they get involved for many other reasons too like death
    4.) i agree its common sense they are involved in legal marriage, denying that fact will never change it
    facts win again
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