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Thread: As gay marriages begin in Florida, Supreme Court is set to meet on issue

  1. #211
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    Re: As gay marriages begin in Florida, Supreme Court is set to meet on issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Most people can't find Spain on a map either - so a popularity contest really isn't a good measure or good argument. I admit, as long as I've been alive government has been in the marriage business but personally, I see it as a money making function. They really don't have to be in it - but it's a nice hook for them to keep track of people, things, etc. I can go either way on it and my tendency would be the status quo but if there's an opportunity to privatize and cut government down to size, I usually take a good hard look at it and try to see if it would work. I think it could work just as well or better than it does now as would most of government functions with a few exceptions.
    When it comes to things people want, and it is something that doesn't actually violate any part of the Constitution (which the government being involved in marriage doesn't), then that is how the US works, rule of the majority.

    You cannot prove that it would work just as well or better privatized. The fact is that it very likely wouldn't work better without any government involvement since the government is the entity that protects our private legal kinships to begin with, hence the government issuing birth certificates.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: As gay marriages begin in Florida, Supreme Court is set to meet on issue

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post

    You cannot prove that it would work just as well or better privatized. The fact is that it very likely wouldn't work better without any government involvement since the government is the entity that protects our private legal kinships to begin with, hence the government issuing birth certificates.
    Private companies work better than government - they're more efficient than government due to competition. I can certainly prove that... especially given the waste and fraud which is rampant through government programs. Private companies cannot absorb such things as the margins (in a majority of business with a few exceptions) are normally low. If private company's cannot meet revenue and cost through margin, they close. Government doesn't have revenue or margin - if they overspend they simply tax more.

    For example, Military Housing which has been privatized since the early 1990's.
    WEB FEATURE: Privatization of Military Housing: a PPP Success Story | Multi-Housing News Online
    Lease agreement adds six bases to housing privatization success story

    Don't get me wrong, it's not all wine and roses, but if privatization is done correctly with government oversight - it's a no brainer.
    The Pros and Cons of Privatizing Government Functions
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  3. #213
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    Re: As gay marriages begin in Florida, Supreme Court is set to meet on issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Most people can't find Spain on a map either - so a popularity contest really isn't a good measure or good argument. I admit, as long as I've been alive government has been in the marriage business but personally, I see it as a money making function. They really don't have to be in it - but it's a nice hook for them to keep track of people, things, etc. I can go either way on it and my tendency would be the status quo but if there's an opportunity to privatize and cut government down to size, I usually take a good hard look at it and try to see if it would work. I think it could work just as well or better than it does now as would most of government functions with a few exceptions.
    government does have to be involved to anybody that actually wants thier rights protected or any contract protected and honored

    and for those that feel otherwise they are free to get a religious/spiritual marriage with on government involved

    so the solution is VERY simply for those that claim they dont want government (not saying you) simply dont get a LEGAL marriage
    This space is currently owned by The Great Winchester, stay tuned for future messages!
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    I'm kind of a big deal

    AGENT J's Avatar
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    Re: As gay marriages begin in Florida, Supreme Court is set to meet on issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Don't get me wrong, it's not all wine and roses, but if privatization is done correctly with government oversight - it's a no brainer.
    The Pros and Cons of Privatizing Government Functions
    as soon as you say "government oversight" it defeats the whole purpose LMAO
    legal marriage is a contract, if people care about those things contained in the contract that requires government period.
    for people not interested they are already able to marry in other non-legal ways
    This space is currently owned by The Great Winchester, stay tuned for future messages!
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    Re: As gay marriages begin in Florida, Supreme Court is set to meet on issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Private companies work better than government - they're more efficient than government due to competition. I can certainly prove that... especially given the waste and fraud which is rampant through government programs. Private companies cannot absorb such things as the margins (in a majority of business with a few exceptions) are normally low. If private company's cannot meet revenue and cost through margin, they close. Government doesn't have revenue or margin - if they overspend they simply tax more.

    For example, Military Housing which has been privatized since the early 1990's.
    WEB FEATURE: Privatization of Military Housing: a PPP Success Story | Multi-Housing News Online
    Lease agreement adds six bases to housing privatization success story

    Don't get me wrong, it's not all wine and roses, but if privatization is done correctly with government oversight - it's a no brainer.
    The Pros and Cons of Privatizing Government Functions
    We are not talking about a business, but rather an institution, a huge set of rights, protections, and various other things that have very little to do with money. Nothing is really being exchanged in a marriage, nothing bought or sold. This is a relationship. You have to show how private contracts without any government backing are better. Trying to compare marriage to housing or business is stupid.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  6. #216
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    Re: As gay marriages begin in Florida, Supreme Court is set to meet on issue

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    government does have to be involved to anybody that actually wants thier rights protected or any contract protected and honored

    and for those that feel otherwise they are free to get a religious/spiritual marriage with on government involved

    so the solution is VERY simply for those that claim they dont want government (not saying you) simply dont get a LEGAL marriage
    I'm not LEGALLY married though I've been with someone I call my wife now for 13 years. As I've already stated, government isn't involved unless there's a dispute. If there's no dispute there is no government involvement. How such an easy concept eludes you is quite amusing.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: As gay marriages begin in Florida, Supreme Court is set to meet on issue

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    We are not talking about a business, but rather an institution, a huge set of rights, protections, and various other things that have very little to do with money. Nothing is really being exchanged in a marriage, nothing bought or sold. This is a relationship. You have to show how private contracts without any government backing are better. Trying to compare marriage to housing or business is stupid.
    The rights and protections exist regardless of who actually does the task. It has everything to do with money.... when privatization can do the same job as government for less - and government still provides the same rights and protections costs go down. As my links already attribute - privatization has worked and the government still backs it.

    You asked for proof, I gave you privatization which has already been done and has succeeded - I didn't compare housing and marriage. And the housing privatization that was done was for the government - the military in fact - and it's worked out great. The rights and privileges of soldiers who live in those houses were still enforced by the DoD. I don't have to prove private contracts are better - I just have to show past privatization has worked and could work with marriages without sacrificing anything and it could. Give evidence as to why it's such a bad idea. Make a case. Making claims about institutions and a loss of rights and privileges without some evidence means you have an opinion but nothing to back it up with. I've provided my opinion and my evidence supporting the idea.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  8. #218
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    Re: As gay marriages begin in Florida, Supreme Court is set to meet on issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    The rights and protections exist regardless of who actually does the task. It has everything to do with money.... when privatization can do the same job as government for less - and government still provides the same rights and protections costs go down. As my links already attribute - privatization has worked and the government still backs it.

    You asked for proof, I gave you privatization which has already been done and has succeeded - I didn't compare housing and marriage. And the housing privatization that was done was for the government - the military in fact - and it's worked out great. The rights and privileges of soldiers who live in those houses were still enforced by the DoD. I don't have to prove private contracts are better - I just have to show past privatization has worked and could work with marriages without sacrificing anything and it could. Give evidence as to why it's such a bad idea. Make a case. Making claims about institutions and a loss of rights and privileges without some evidence means you have an opinion but nothing to back it up with. I've provided my opinion and my evidence supporting the idea.
    No they don't exist unless the government guarantees them, recognizes the legal relationship. And if you have to have the government recognize that relationship, then it is cheapest and easiest to simply get that one single contract, piece of paperwork, that costs very little compared to what it would require paperwork wise without that marriage license. How is the private industry going to provide a single, one page contract for each individual that costs less and covers as much or more than the marriage license?

    Yes, you would have to prove that they were better or at least as good. It isn't just the legal protections either, but also other things. Even military housing is regulated by the government, I know, I lived in it less than a year ago. Plenty of rules that both residents and the private contractors had to abide by.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: As gay marriages begin in Florida, Supreme Court is set to meet on issue

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    No they don't exist unless the government guarantees them, recognizes the legal relationship. And if you have to have the government recognize that relationship, then it is cheapest and easiest to simply get that one single contract, piece of paperwork, that costs very little compared to what it would require paperwork wise without that marriage license. How is the private industry going to provide a single, one page contract for each individual that costs less and covers as much or more than the marriage license?
    The model already exists in the private sector - Legal Zoom. I can't guarantee marriage licenses could follow this model but I don't see why it couldn't since Legal Zoom already covers things like: Trusts, Wills, LLC's and Incorporations... Those things are also contracts which are enforced by our court system in the US. If the government privatized marriage licenses, they would need to guarantee and recognize them - unless of course the government got out of the marriage business altogether, which would be another discussion entirely.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Yes, you would have to prove that they were better or at least as good. It isn't just the legal protections either, but also other things. Even military housing is regulated by the government, I know, I lived in it less than a year ago. Plenty of rules that both residents and the private contractors had to abide by.
    I'm sure if it were tested and Congress created a bill - it could be done with proper oversight. That's all I've been saying.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  10. #220
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    Re: As gay marriages begin in Florida, Supreme Court is set to meet on issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    The model already exists in the private sector - Legal Zoom. I can't guarantee marriage licenses could follow this model but I don't see why it couldn't since Legal Zoom already covers things like: Trusts, Wills, LLC's and Incorporations... Those things are also contracts which are enforced by our court system in the US. If the government privatized marriage licenses, they would need to guarantee and recognize them - unless of course the government got out of the marriage business altogether, which would be another discussion entirely.

    I'm sure if it were tested and Congress created a bill - it could be done with proper oversight. That's all I've been saying.
    Those things you mentioned are but a small bit of what marriage covers. And none of them are as secure as legal marriage. And much of that stuff costs extra money if you want something besides a very basic contract. And it still would be more than a single document. Less efficient.

    And a will alone at Legal Zomm costs $70-$80, not counting the $15 a month subscription fee. Then there is the costs for each of the other documents, some of which expire. The most expensive marriage license is about $100, most are much less, less than even the cost of just the will.
    Last edited by roguenuke; 01-16-15 at 11:28 AM.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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