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Thread: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

  1. #601
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    Re: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

    Quote Originally Posted by 11Bravo View Post
    Where we disagree is in the commission of the crime.
    Yes, I don't agree that the accusation of the commissioning a crime is sufficient to deny a citizen constitutional protection.
    "The side that stays within its fortifications is beaten." ~Napoleon

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    Re: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post

    And what makes your subjective view on the value of life more significant than the subjective views of everyone else, including potential offenders?
    I value my life of higher importance than the life of an individual that would resort to murdering me. I am well within my rights not only by the laws of man but by the laws of the gods to defend myself, even using deadly force if necessary in order to do so.

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    Re: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    We likely agree on a good many things. I'm a fan of order and justice. I see that as being a product of an organized, consistent, and objective system. Individual judgments and actions are frequently going to be disorganized, inconsistent, and subjective. I'm advocating removing those factors from the way we treat citizens.
    But what you don't seem to understand is that in the heat of the moment... when faced with a lethal threat... the threatened person does not have time for "order and justice" to be carried out in a courtroom before they are permitted to defend themselves against a lethal threat.

    What you are truly advocating is removing the right to defend yourselves from violence. You are advocating a society in which bullies prevail over the generally passive and non-violent members of society. You are advocating a society in which individuals live in fear of the actions of ruthless thugs who have no problem committing violence to get what they want.

    Access to mental health programs, "social services" and education as you have stated do not change the fact that there are violent people, regardless of what services you attempt to force on them. And yes I say force on them, for most individuals who are violent in nature have absolutely no interest in your social programs. They do not sit around thinking, "If I only had a program to go to to suddenly make me less violent". And one who is court ordered to go to these programs are only doing it so they can maintain their freedom as they ignore or resist change.... or pretend to change just to get through the program and back out on the streets. Ive seen this over and over and over with those forced into alcohol rehabilitation by the courts.

    The fact is..... you talk about social programs and education and et al. But that does not change the CULTURE that encourages violence.

  4. #604
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    Re: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    I value my life of higher importance than the life of an individual that would resort to murdering me. I am well within my rights not only by the laws of man but by the laws of the gods to defend myself, even using deadly force if necessary in order to do so.
    You have the right according to case law. God's permission is going to be a harder one to prove in a legitimate courtroom.
    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    But what you don't seem to understand is that in the heat of the moment... when faced with a lethal threat... the threatened person does not have time for "order and justice" to be carried out in a courtroom before they are permitted to defend themselves against a lethal threat.

    What you are truly advocating is removing the right to defend yourselves from violence. You are advocating a society in which bullies prevail over the generally passive and non-violent members of society. You are advocating a society in which individuals live in fear of the actions of ruthless thugs who have no problem committing violence to get what they want.

    Access to mental health programs, "social services" and education as you have stated do not change the fact that there are violent people, regardless of what services you attempt to force on them. And yes I say force on them, for most individuals who are violent in nature have absolutely no interest in your social programs. They do not sit around thinking, "If I only had a program to go to to suddenly make me less violent". And one who is court ordered to go to these programs are only doing it so they can maintain their freedom as they ignore or resist change.... or pretend to change just to get through the program and back out on the streets. Ive seen this over and over and over with those forced into alcohol rehabilitation by the courts.

    The fact is..... you talk about social programs and education and et al. But that does not change the CULTURE that encourages violence.
    A) I'm not advocating that you not defend yourself, defense is a broad term.

    B) Being permitted --even encouraged-- to kill people you perceive as violent is "a culture that encourages violence."

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