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Thread: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

  1. #561
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    Re: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    Building codes are based on quantifiable things.

    Same with medical research.

    Human interaction is not even CLOSE to being understood to the same degree.


    Edit: Further, there's the question of whether we should try to codify and control it if we could. Freedom of thought and expression? Dangerous ground there.
    Everything is quantifiable.

    As for freedom of expression and thought, I'm entirely in support of it. We can codify proper behaviors for citizens to engage in, we do it all the time in the lawmaking process. We've codified non-killing as the proper behavior for people in the overwhelming majority of social interactions. If we increase the percentage of non-killing to 100% that increases the freedom of expression and thought of all those people otherwise killed, unless you're studying with killing being an extreme example of "behavior and thought" worthy of protection.
    "The side that stays within its fortifications is beaten." ~Napoleon

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    Re: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    Everything is quantifiable.

    As for freedom of expression and thought, I'm entirely in support of it. We can codify proper behaviors for citizens to engage in, we do it all the time in the lawmaking process. We've codified non-killing as the proper behavior for people in the overwhelming majority of social interactions. If we increase the percentage of non-killing to 100% that increases the freedom of expression and thought of all those people otherwise killed, unless you're studying with killing being an extreme example of "behavior and thought" worthy of protection.
    Killing is a valid, if regrettable, response to extreme threats.


    Or at least I think it is?
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

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    Re: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    Killing is a valid, if regrettable, response to extreme threats.


    Or at least I think it is?
    It is currently seen that way by case law. I see it as a preventable, unacceptable response to extreme threats.
    "The side that stays within its fortifications is beaten." ~Napoleon

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    Re: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    You can defend yourself, but your defenses should be defense. Shooting someone isn't defense.



    The legal status is significant because without it, the accused is denied multiple constitutional rights, specifically the 6th Amendment in nearly its entirety.
    There are zero constitutional rights for someone carrying out a murder. In the commission of a murder, you lose all rights. If someone sees your murdering someone, THEY (witness) are legally allowed to act if necessary, which can cause death to the attacker. It's how the world works so murderers can be stopped from murdering others. That will never changd, until people stop trying to kill people (never). Sorry bud!

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    Re: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

    Quote Originally Posted by 11Bravo View Post
    There are zero constitutional rights for someone carrying out a murder. In the commission of a murder, you lose all rights. If someone sees your murdering someone, THEY (witness) are legally allowed to act if necessary, which can cause death to the attacker. It's how the world works so murderers can be stopped from murdering others. That will never changd, until people stop trying to kill people (never). Sorry bud!
    Please show where in the Constitution it notes where citizens can be accused to crimes without trial and shot, because the majority of the BoR pretty much says the opposite.
    "The side that stays within its fortifications is beaten." ~Napoleon

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    Re: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    Please show where in the Constitution it notes where citizens can be accused to crimes without trial and shot, because the majority of the BoR pretty much says the opposite.
    If a person is actively attacking a police officer (or anyone?) with a deadly weapon, current law does not require even an accusation, let alone a trial, before police/civilians are allowed to shoot them in self-defense and/or to protect the lives of others.

    Preventing such occurrences from happening by disallowing police/civilians from shooting people who attack them is not a good idea - it would only lead to police dying more, not to mention civilians who carry also dying...That, or going to jail for defending their own life, which is not something that should be illegal IMO.

    Rather, the optimal way to prevent such is to stop the person from reaching the point where they are attacking police/civilians.

    To do this we need to improve the access to and availability of health care for all issues, but especially mental issues.

    Additionally we need to cut WAY the **** back on imprisoning people for petty, stupid, things.

    Prisons have a tendency to make some people MORE prone to crime, rather than the reverse, simply because of the environment they are placed in.
    Placing a person in prison for something that did no real harm to anyone except possibly themselves is not acceptable.

    Edit: In short, the solution to the problem you see - police/civilians killing people who are committing crimes - is NOT to prevent the killing, but rather to prevent the crimes that IMO often completely justify the killing.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

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    Re: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    If a person is actively attacking a police officer (or anyone?) with a deadly weapon, current law does not require even an accusation, let alone a trial, before police/civilians are allowed to shoot them in self-defense and/or to protect the lives of others.

    Preventing such occurrences from happening by disallowing police/civilians from shooting people who attack them is not a good idea - it would only lead to police dying more, not to mention civilians who carry also dying...That, or going to jail for defending their own life, which is not something that should be illegal IMO.

    Rather, the optimal way to prevent such is to stop the person from reaching the point where they are attacking police/civilians.

    To do this we need to improve the access to and availability of health care for all issues, but especially mental issues.

    Additionally we need to cut WAY the **** back on imprisoning people for petty, stupid, things.

    Prisons have a tendency to make some people MORE prone to crime, rather than the reverse, simply because of the environment they are placed in.
    Placing a person in prison for something that did no real harm to anyone except possibly themselves is not acceptable.
    I agree with much of the second half of your post, but I believe that we're currently far too biased towards property rights and law enforcement at the detriment to general protections of citizens. The castle doctrine and stand your ground laws are basically a permission slip for giving capital sentences to mid level criminals.

    We need to dissuade lethal answers and increase prevention.
    "The side that stays within its fortifications is beaten." ~Napoleon

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    Re: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    I agree with much of the second half of your post, but I believe that we're currently far too biased towards property rights and law enforcement at the detriment to general protections of citizens. The castle doctrine and stand your ground laws are basically a permission slip for giving capital sentences to mid level criminals.

    We need to dissuade lethal answers and increase prevention.
    In my mind, if it's a choice between a police officer/civilian losing their life and a person who wants to kill/harm them losing his/her life, the police officer/civilian takes precedence in almost every case.

    This is why I'm focused on preventing people from placing themselves in that position rather than preventing what I consider an appropriate response if they have already placed themselves in that position.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

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    Re: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    In my mind, if it's a choice between a police officer/civilian losing their life and a person who wants to kill/harm them losing his/her life, the police officer/civilian takes precedence in almost every case.

    This is why I'm focused on preventing people from placing themselves in that position rather than preventing what I consider an appropriate response if they have already placed themselves in that position.
    If we create a severe disincentive for allowing people to reach that state, we're increasing the incentive for early prevention. Our current laws encourage falling to address these problems proactively.
    "The side that stays within its fortifications is beaten." ~Napoleon

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    Re: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    Please show where in the Constitution it notes where citizens can be accused to crimes without trial and shot, because the majority of the BoR pretty much says the opposite.
    I'm beginning to think you're not yet a Junior in high school.

    Someone in THE COMMISSION of a MURDER is not "accused". They are subject to ZERO constitutional rights when IN THE COMMISSION of a murder. I've cited the section code of federal law for you like 3 times. Either you start reading THE LAW, or learn it when you get to college.

    There's a reason people can defend themselves with lethal force. There's a REASON Wilson is not EVEN indicted. You have no idea what you're talking about.

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