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Thread: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

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    Re: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post

    That's basically been the premise we've been discussing. My viewpoint is that the state is the arbiter of justice. Interference, even well meaning, is still interference. The ends don't justify the means for citizens to deny life to other citizens without trial.
    Therefore..

    You are stating a citizen does not have the right to defend themselves against a lethal threat against them, and thus must allow themselves to be killed by someone who is willing to kill them.


    That is the most ignorant thing I've ever heard.

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    Re: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    A murderer is not a murderer until recognized as such by the state, until then they are a citizen and protected by the same rights as all citizens.



    That's basically been the premise we've been discussing. My viewpoint is that the state is the arbiter of justice. Interference, even well meaning, is still interference. The ends don't justify the means for citizens to deny life to other citizens without trial.
    Cite your sources for that outrageous claim. Someone can shoot someone dead in the middle of mardi gras, that makes them a murderer the moment they pull the trigger. The legal status is irrelevant until there is a trial, assuming that idiot makes it out alive.

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    Re: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Therefore..

    You are stating a citizen does not have the right to defend themselves against a lethal threat against them, and thus must allow themselves to be killed by someone who is willing to kill them.


    That is the most ignorant thing I've ever heard.
    You can defend yourself, but your defenses should be defense. Shooting someone isn't defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by 11Bravo View Post
    Cite your sources for that outrageous claim. Someone can shoot someone dead in the middle of mardi gras, that makes them a murderer the moment they pull the trigger. The legal status is irrelevant until there is a trial, assuming that idiot makes it out alive.
    The legal status is significant because without it, the accused is denied multiple constitutional rights, specifically the 6th Amendment in nearly its entirety.
    "The side that stays within its fortifications is beaten." ~Napoleon

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    Re: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    That's basically been the premise we've been discussing. My viewpoint is that the state is the arbiter of justice. Interference, even well meaning, is still interference. The ends don't justify the means for citizens to deny life to other citizens without trial.
    We know that is the premise for God's sake....Why won't you then take Caine's scenerio, and answer the question? No more dancing....So with that in mind here is Caine's question again....Answer it this time.....

    "When one of the citizens attempts to deprive the other of their life.... should they be permitted to do so... IN THAT MOMENT, because they have not had a trial yet to be determined guilty? Or should the at-risk individual be permitted to defend themselves against the attempt on their life, even through means of matching deadly force with deadly force in order to do so?"
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    We know that is the premise for God's sake....Why won't you then take Caine's scenerio, and answer the question? No more dancing....So with that in mind here is Caine's question again....Answer it this time.....

    "When one of the citizens attempts to deprive the other of their life.... should they be permitted to do so... IN THAT MOMENT, because they have not had a trial yet to be determined guilty? Or should the at-risk individual be permitted to defend themselves against the attempt on their life, even through means of matching deadly force with deadly force in order to do so?"
    Legally, I would argue they cannot "match" deadly force with deadly force.
    "The side that stays within its fortifications is beaten." ~Napoleon

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    Re: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    Legally, I would argue they cannot "match" deadly force with deadly force.
    And you would lose. The Supreme Court has upheld self defense doctrine in every instance...What in the world makes you think that the aggressor should be afforded the right to carry out his attack?
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    And you would lose. The Supreme Court has upheld self defense doctrine in every instance...What in the world makes you think that the aggressor should be afforded the right to carry out his attack?
    I understand the case law history. I disagree with it, and view it as a violation of our constitutional rights.

    The "aggressor" shouldn't be allowed to kill and neither should the other citizen. Both should legally be held accountable for violating the rights of other citizens.
    "The side that stays within its fortifications is beaten." ~Napoleon

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    Re: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    I understand the case law history. I disagree with it, and view it as a violation of our constitutional rights.

    The "aggressor" shouldn't be allowed to kill and neither should the other citizen. Both should legally be held accountable for violating the rights of other citizens.
    Ok, so how do you stop the aggressor in the moment?
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Ok, so how do you stop the aggressor in the moment?
    A) waiting until the moment is horrible planning, which seems to be what everyone is hung up on.

    B) Anything that's legal throughout the rest of your life is still legal when threatened by an attacker.
    "The side that stays within its fortifications is beaten." ~Napoleon

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    Re: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    A) waiting until the moment is horrible planning, which seems to be what everyone is hung up on.

    B) Anything that's legal throughout the rest of your life is still legal when threatened by an attacker.
    A. Yes, that's right. It's best to have your weapon ready ahead of time.
    B. Including defending yourself and others.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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