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Thread: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

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    Re: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    So the cop with the broken arm and broken leg continuing to be bludgeoned by a man with a shovel: false dichotomy? How was he escaping?

    False dichotomy: yes or no?

    Again: should he have allowed the attack to continue rather than use lethal force?

    It's a yes or no question. Try it: yes no. Pick one.
    You're trying to analyze an entire encounter by isolating a single moment within it. Once you have your limbs broken, obviously your choices are limited. If you're allowing your limbs to be broken you're falling to protect yourself, and by extension you're increasing the risk to your attacker's life because now it's "self defense" as opposed to prevention where no one gets seriously hurt.
    "The side that stays within its fortifications is beaten." ~Napoleon

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    Re: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    No one should be killed "because they're a threat." That's not justice.
    Reality isn't just.

    But more applicably, my understanding is that legally, police officers and in some cases private individuals are allowed to defend themselves against what they consider to be a threat to their life - by applying lethal force if the situation warrants it.

    It is my further understanding that this is the case because it is currently considered the best of the available options, by the society we live in.

    If you're arguing that the law and interpretation thereof is incorrect, that is something for you to work towards changing.


    But the current state of affairs is in place because the society we live in has determined it is best...so you have to change minds and get them to change laws if you want it different.

    Whether it is unjust in your opinion is effectively irrelevant, unless you can convince enough others to agree.
    Education.

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    Re: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    My first goal would be to protect my own life, not to kill another person.

    The two actions are not the same.
    Are you going to shoot the gun out of the bad guy's hand like they used to do in the old western movies?
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Are you going to shoot the gun out of the bad guy's hand like they used to do in the old western movies?
    I think I saw/read somewhere that it is usually considered optimal for you to shoot "center of mass", in a self-defense situation, as that is the most likely to incapacitate the person, rather than just making them angry.

    Especially if you are using a firearm that has greater dispersion, and/or if you're minimally trained (or not trained).


    It is obvious that this often results in the person you are shooting at dieing - but while this is generally considered a negative, it is also generally considered better than simply letting them harm/kill you.
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    Re: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    You're trying to analyze an entire encounter by isolating a single moment within it. Once you have your limbs broken, obviously your choices are limited. If you're allowing your limbs to be broken you're falling to protect yourself, and by extension you're increasing the risk to your attacker's life because now it's "self defense" as opposed to prevention where no one gets seriously hurt.
    So the cop forfeits his life because he didnt shoot the lethal danger (to the public as well, which it's his job to protect) as soon as he saw him? Or he didnt run away, therefore also not doing his job? Or calling back up and waiting while the shovel-weilder beat others?

    Again....blaming the victim and no honest answer because your selfish and unrealistic view cannot be supported honestly.

    I guess it was your daughter's fault for not escaping fast enough when the rapist grabbed her. Or not knowing martial arts to disable him? So she forfeited her body and possibly her life and any (armed) bystander should just let him rape her while calling 911 and waiting for the cops to get out there on the jogging trail?

    Yes? No? Please, pick one. Or admit that there is no way to honestly support your position.
    Last edited by Lursa; 01-15-15 at 01:16 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    You're trying to analyze an entire encounter by isolating a single moment within it. Once you have your limbs broken, obviously your choices are limited. If you're allowing your limbs to be broken you're falling to protect yourself, and by extension you're increasing the risk to your attacker's life because now it's "self defense" as opposed to prevention where no one gets seriously hurt.
    In your opinion, what actions on the part of a person are sufficient to reach the threshold at which you would support a police officer or private citizen killing them?
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    Re: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    My first goal would be to protect my own life, not to kill another person.

    The two actions are not the same.
    So you are refusing to answer my question? If someone pulled a gun on you, and you were armed, what would be your actions? Be specific for us.

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    Re: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    There's no guarantee that anyone's killing anyone. You're advocating brinksmanship based on fear.



    If there's no escape, there's no escape. Lethal violence or death is almost always a false dichotomy.



    I also imagine I'd be the one you'd prefer behind the trigger if you'd made a mistake rather than a trigger happy vigilante with an "us or them" mentality.



    You seem to be arguing, based on my link that the people killed by people claiming "self defense" should've been armed.
    I'm not arguing anything. I'm asking you to answer the self defense question that you've been dodging all week. If you were armed, and someone pulled a gun on you, what would be your actions. Please be specific for us.

    I'll paint the scenario (this is a real scenario from last month I read about in the NYP):

    You are walking home from work. You walk past two men who have just shot a man they were robbing. You see this happen, and they see you. They realize you are a witness. They then turn their guns on you and charge at you. They are getting closer, they are about 40 feet away. Realizing that they are now splitting up to make sure you don't run, you are trapped, you have a glock on your waist, what happens next?

    Please be vivid.

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    Re: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

    Quote Originally Posted by 11Bravo View Post
    I'm not arguing anything. I'm asking you to answer the self defense question that you've been dodging all week. If you were armed, and someone pulled a gun on you, what would be your actions. Please be specific for us.

    I'll paint the scenario (this is a real scenario from last month I read about in the NYP):

    You are walking home from work. You walk past two men who have just shot a man they were robbing. You see this happen, and they see you. They realize you are a witness. They then turn their guns on you and charge at you. They are getting closer, they are about 40 feet away. Realizing that they are now splitting up to make sure you don't run, you are trapped, you have a glock on your waist, what happens next?

    Please be vivid.
    Not sure it's good example. He would probably let them kill him...that's a personal choice and he's welcome to it. I'm disturbed that he would choose to legislate away the right to life for others that COULD save their own lives with lethal force if necessary.

    Part of the reason he would just say let them kill him is because he cannot actually imagine these scenarios in a realistic manner. He obviously avoided any empathy with the victims in the examples I gave, refused to put himself in their places.....to do so, would make his position even more unreasonable. He cant imagine the speed and violence of predatory attacks either. He thinks you have lots of time.

    He cant imagine surviving it so he'd just capitulate. But this inability to truly understand life or death situations...and the denial that they are not rare....leaves many holes in his moral position.

    One that you and I and others have clearly observed since he refuses to directly answer those questions.
    Last edited by Lursa; 01-15-15 at 01:17 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Not sure it's good example. He would probably let them kill him...that's a personal choice and he's welcome to it. I'm disturbed that he would choose to legislate away the right to life for others that COULD save their own lives with lethal force if necessary.

    Part of the reason he would just say let them kill him is because he cannot actually imagine these scenarios in a realistic manner. He obviously avoided any empathy with the victims in the examples I gave, refused to put himself in their places.....to do so, would make his position even more unreasonable. He cant imagine the speed and violence of predatory attacks either. He thinks you have lots of time.

    He cant imagine surviving it so he'd just capitulate. But this inability to truly understand life or death situations...and the denial that they are not rare....leaves many holes in his moral position.

    One that you and I and others have clearly observed since he refuses to directly answer those questions.
    That's a great way to put it. He truly doesn't understand life or death situations. This individual one day will realize what we're talking about. I'm assuming he's fairly young. His argument makes absolutely no sense to the common man.

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