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Thread: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

  1. #441
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    Re: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Sometimes (like in self defense) you have to violate another persons rights. The law recognizes this.

    Life exists outside of liberal theory.
    Life is filled with violations. I'm a fan of decreasing them. Violating a citizen's rights should involve the justice system, not a pat on the back.

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    Re: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    By this logic most forums in this site should be closed, considering that the only opinions that matter are the SCOTUS ones and not ours. We're here to discuss political thoughts, not necessarily just parrot what's actually happened.

    I'm arguing an interpretation of the same founding documents you claim to place your faith in.

    I disagree. I think that my view is much more consistent than "self defense" is.

    Even if another citizen is attempting to violate your rights doesn't mean that you have to violate theirs.

    1. Eye for an eye is primitive justice. We're modern people with modern understandings and modern resources. We're capable of better.

    Avoiding trouble is the smartest form of "self defense."

    2. Natural rights don't exist.

    You don't get to be the gatekeeper of which interpretation is legitimate. It's as much my document as an American citizen as it is yours.

    3. I understand that. I'm not arguing case law. I'm arguing the conflict of ideologies between the Bill of Rights and those SCOTUS decisions.
    1. An eye for an eye is revenge or justice, according to your point of view, after the fact. Self defense is taking an eye so someone else doesn't take yours. It's quite a different thing.

    2. The writers of the Constitution and Declaration would definitely disagree with you there, but then, your opinion matters as much as theirs (in your opinion, of course).

    3. There is no conflict of ideology, just a conflict between your interpretation and everyone else's.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    1. An eye for an eye is revenge or justice, according to your point of view, after the fact. Self defense is taking an eye so someone else doesn't take yours. It's quite a different thing.
    I'm a fan of removing the least amount of eyes. I see "self defense" as the most blinding of the options.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    2. The writers of the Constitution and Declaration would definitely disagree with you there, but then, your opinion matters as much as theirs (in your opinion, of course).
    They might disagree, but the document that was intended to verify and itemize the rights of citizens sides with me -- IMO of course.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    3. There is no conflict of ideology, just a conflict between your interpretation and everyone else's.
    There is a conflict of ideology because the Bill of Rights gives multiple explicit Amendments that defend what a suspected, accused, and/or convicted criminal is entitled to and zero that give any definition of "self defense" while case law defends it as if it were the opposite.

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    Re: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    Life is filled with violations. I'm a fan of decreasing them. Violating a citizen's rights should involve the justice system, not a pat on the back.
    Blah blah blah. You can tell that to an attacker as he guts you. Tell him all about it.

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    Re: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Blah blah blah. You can tell that to an attacker as he guts you. Tell him all about it.
    Your attempt to vilify citizens in order to deny them Constitutional protections is short sighted. We'll all want Constitutional protections some day.

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    Re: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    Your attempt to vilify citizens in order to deny them Constitutional protections is short sighted. We'll all want Constitutional protections some day.
    Im not vilifying citizens but there are some bad people out there. Not many-but enough that people would be naive to pretend otherwise.

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    Re: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Im not vilifying citizens but there are some bad people out there. Not many-but enough that people would be naive to pretend otherwise.
    And even those deserve every protection we can extend to them.

  8. #448
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    Re: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Im not vilifying citizens but there are some bad people out there. Not many-but enough that people would be naive to pretend otherwise.
    Do you run into a lot of bad people? I don't, and I live in Brooklyn.

    I don't walk around scared that someone's going to attack me... do you?

    I'm asking this because I can understand people behaving in a fearful way if there's danger always lurking around each and every corner (like Somalia). But, the vast majority of Americans live in extremely violence free environments (comparatively speaking), so the message of "be ready to kill!" seems grossly overblown to me.

    Hell, I grew up in Brooklyn during the height of the crack epidemic. It was absolutely crazy. So from my lens, all of this fear looks extreme to me.
    A man without fear is a fool, a man that succumbs to his fear is a coward and a brave man acknowledges fear yet presses on.
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    Re: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    It is unilateral when one person is authorized to kill instead of granting the person a trial by jury of peers. If they're an authorized government official doing this it is even more immoral IMO. If a person deserves justice, it should be determined through the justice system.
    Lol, when someone's life is in danger, there's not going to BE a trial, the officer MUST eliminate the threat to himself or the public. Since there was a giant man trying to murder him, he did the right thing by putting him down. 100% legal, 100% fair. Brown chose to try and end the officer's life, and the correct scenario pllayed out. The justice system proved this to be correct.

    You don't get taken to trial if you are a threat to a police officer or especially the general public. You will be killed.

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    Re: Man tries to run over Pa. police, shot dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    Natural rights don't exist.

    Then you do NOT believe in this nations independence....That you said you did was a lie.

    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--"

    Declaration of Independence - Text Transcript

    un•al•ien•a•ble (ɪnˈeɪl yə nə bəl, -ˈeɪ li ə-)

    adj.
    not alienable; not transferable to another or capable of being repudiated.

    unalienable - definition of unalienable by The Free Dictionary

    IOW, The founders believed that we as a people, in fact all of mankind period were endowed by "Natural Rights"....Rights that government can not take away, because they didn't grant them....

    You just destroyed your own entire argument....Thanks.

    *drops mic, and leaves the stage*
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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