Toddler shoots and kills mother in Hayden Walmart

Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

year2late said:

And if you have been around toddlers, you KNOW it is their job to be nosey and get into stuff. If my gun was in my purse (CCW purse or not), that purse would be crossbody - not left for anyone to get into. Hell, if you really know toddlers, he probably knew something worth exploring was in the purse.

Yes, I think a parent having a loaded weapon in a purse and a child being able to access it is CLEARLY irresponsible.

I think she showed a lack of respect for the weapon.

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Your assumption is that the purse was "left for anyone to get into"...

You have toddlers... let me ask you truthfully... have you EVER taken anything away from your toddler that was potentially dangerous? a toy, a coin, pulling on an electric cord?

Yes or no...

If you have taken something away from a toddler... I guess that would mean that you are irresponsible... because why should they have it in the first place?

EMNofSeattle said:

I could Google anything, but most people don't go out of their way looking for new stories. So the national media taking up a story is a very powerful influence

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When I googled, it did not lead me to primarily local news sites.

Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

Deuce said:

Says the guy who thinks a gun without a bullet in the chamber is a paperweight.

If it takes you so long to chamber a round that your gun is rendered useless, perhaps you are the one who needs to get some basic training with firearms.

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The first round is the most important.

You understand nothing about handguns, training, and real world applications.

Cry your river elsewhere.

Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

Look, this was a million-to-one incident. Make that millionS-to-one.


Tragic **** happens sometimes. Something like forty times as many people die in traffic accidents as gun accidents, but people don't blame the private ownership of cars in most cases.

Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

EMNofSeattle said:

CPS would then place the boys in a group home in Olympia with predatory older boys will rape them..... Happy ending to the story all around

Oh wait that's off topic just thinking aloud

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Doesn't look like there was much thinking going on -aloud or otherwise.

year2late said:

I guarantee that if a parent allowed a toddler to be in control wheel and someone died, I would be equally as pissed off if a parent allowed their toddler to access a gun and someone died. YMMV

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That is better.

I believe that we are of the same mind, but separated by words.

Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

Goshin said:

Look, this was a million-to-one incident. Make that millionS-to-one.


Tragic **** happens sometimes. Something like forty times as many people die in traffic accidents as gun accidents, but people don't blame the private ownership of cars in most cases.

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Again, false equivalency. This was not a traffic "whoops. If you are going to carry a weapon, you need to respect the power. Leaving your loaded weapon in a place your two year old can get it is not a "whoops"

Everyone I know that handles guns knows the rules and follows them to a T. Firearm safety should be second nature. If it is not, you should keep your weapon at home, locked up until you do. YMMV

I

Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

year2late said:

Again, false equivalency. This was not a traffic "whoops. If you are going to carry a weapon, you need to respect the power. Leaving your loaded weapon in a place your two year old can get it is not a "whoops"

Everyone I know that handles guns knows the rules and follows them to a T. Firearm safety should be second nature. If it is not, you should keep your weapon at home, locked up until you do. YMMV

I

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You're preaching to the choir; my son could recite the Three Rules from memory before he was nine. My extended family includes twenty people today, and in the past century none of us or our ancestors, have injured anyone accidentally with a firearm, and we all have lots of them. Many of us CCW, and have or had small children while doing so, and have had no incidents.


Women have certain issues with CCW that men don't, one of which is that body shape and common modes of dress often do not support on-body carry very well. Thus, off-body carry (purses with special CCW compartments as I understand this case involved) have become popular.

Personally I don't like off-body carry; even if the purse is kept close it isn't the same. Pragmatically well the special gun enclosure is supposed to minimize the risk of some kid randomly rummaging in your purse finding the gun.


Child car seats are supposed to reduce child traffic deaths too. Mostly they do. Once in a while they don't.


The traffic analogy is actually a perfect analogy: driving on the roads with kids is something we CHOOSE to do, which we KNOW carries a great deal of risk... far more than owning a firearm. We do it anyway, and when it goes wrong we don't usually blame Mommy for choosing to be a motorist.


That the anti's can't see that is another indicator of their hypocrisy.

Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

year2late said:

Doesn't look like there was much thinking going on -aloud or otherwise.

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nope, it was a criticism of CPS in WA state.

but aside, CPS would not seize a child because of an accident involving a car. they don't seize children for accidents involving guns. unless the parents are black... oh ok well thinking aloud again.

I can think of three local cases here where there were child gun accidents that involved fatalities and to the best of my knowledge CPS didn't remove the kids in any of them. I know of children abused by meth addicts that CPS does nothing about either.

so bringing up CPS for the car analogy is flawed, we can look at gun accidents, CPS doesn't do anything there either.

Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

Goshin said:

You're preaching to the choir; my son could recite the Three Rules from memory before he was nine. My extended family includes twenty people today, and in the past century none of us or our ancestors, have injured anyone accidentally with a firearm, and we all have lots of them. Many of us CCW, and have or had small children while doing so, and have had no incidents.


Women have certain issues with CCW that men don't, one of which is that body shape and common modes of dress often do not support on-body carry very well. Thus, off-body carry (purses with special CCW compartments as I understand this case involved) have become popular.

Personally I don't like off-body carry; even if the purse is kept close it isn't the same. Pragmatically well the special gun enclosure is supposed to minimize the risk of some kid randomly rummaging in your purse finding the gun.


Child car seats are supposed to reduce child traffic deaths too. Mostly they do. Once in a while they don't.


The traffic analogy is actually a perfect analogy: driving on the roads with kids is something we CHOOSE to do, which we KNOW carries a great deal of risk... far more than owning a firearm. We do it anyway, and when it goes wrong we don't usually blame Mommy for choosing to be a motorist.


That the anti's can't see that is another indicator of their hypocrisy.

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exactly, this poster is being a hardass purely because it involves a gun, then trying to frame comparisons in such a way that she can bash only gun owners.

Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

Goshin said:

You're preaching to the choir; my son could recite the Three Rules from memory before he was nine. My extended family includes twenty people today, and in the past century none of us or our ancestors, have injured anyone accidentally with a firearm, and we all have lots of them. Many of us CCW, and have or had small children while doing so, and have had no incidents.

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Agreed. You gotta have enough respect for your firearm to follow the rules .

Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

EMNofSeattle said:

nope, it was a criticism of CPS in WA state.

but aside, CPS would not seize a child because of an accident involving a car. they don't seize children for accidents involving guns. unless the parents are black... oh ok well thinking aloud again.

I can think of three local cases here where there were child gun accidents that involved fatalities and to the best of my knowledge CPS didn't remove the kids in any of them. I know of children abused by meth addicts that CPS does nothing about either.

so bringing up CPS for the car analogy is flawed, we can look at gun accidents, CPS doesn't do anything there either.

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I said nothing of seizing children. But they would likely investigate as to why your toddler was behind the wheel and killed people.

BTW, if your hatred behind Washington CPS was regarding that homebirthed breastfed case - it was pretty well debunked and the parents acknowledge they had multiple issues.

Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

year2late said:

I said nothing of seizing children. But they would likely investigate as to why your toddler was behind the wheel and killed people.

BTW, if your hatred behind Washington CPS was regarding that homebirthed breastfed case - it was pretty well debunked and the parents acknowledge they had multiple issues.

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my hatred of Washington CPS has to do with the Wenatchee Sex Abuse scandal and the Olympia Kiawanis Boys Ranch, in 2014 we're still settling lawsuits with taxpayer money from both.

google that!

well I'll do OKBR for you.

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19951214&slug=2157707

Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

Deuce said:

The tampon can't kill anyone no matter how much you want it to.

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Ever hear of Toxic Shock Syndrome?

Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

paddymcdougall said:

When I see a sign saying "no shirts, no shoes, no service" - I respect the views of the shopowner.

Similarly with "no food no drink" signs - I make sure to finish before entering.

I respect you, Lursa; and so I am surprised that you would bring a gun onto a premise that doesn't want them there.

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You know I respect you too. This is a very well thought out decision on my part and has been discussed a great deal on gun forums where there is definitely NOT consensus on the issue and many agree with you.

First...no harm is done, the business owner does not know. Concealed means concealed. Shirt and shoes have public health foundations and are obvious. lf a business does post no guns I will happily take my business to their competitors if I can.

The objection is a moral one and I'm not interested in the business owner's morals. Or yes, I may be. I no longer shop at Hobby Lobby. I do not patronize businesses where *I am aware of their moral views on an issue and I find it objectionable.* However they do not know any of my other views and I'm not interested in their opinions on my views or morals. And I keep my gun to myself just like I keep my opinions to myself when conducting business.

Some businesses have insurance obligations that require they post no guns on their businesses and the business owner may not even support that viewpoint. And no harm is done to them as, again, it's concealed.

Last, that business is not obligated to protect me in anyway should there be a crime committed there that threatens my life. Their security guards, if they have them, are to protect the store's property, etc. They have no intention of protecting me....that is always my responsibility and mine alone.

I realize you may not agree but I hope you will consider my perspective.

Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

year2late said:

And if you have been around toddlers, you KNOW it is their job to be nosey and get into stuff. If my gun was in my purse (CCW purse or not), that purse would be crossbody - not left for anyone to get into. Hell, if you really know toddlers, he probably knew something worth exploring was in the purse.

Yes, I think a parent having a loaded weapon in a purse and a child being able to access it is CLEARLY irresponsible.

I think she showed a lack of respect for the weapon.

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I agree but also like I said, it may have been a momentary lapse of a woman juggling 4 kids in Walmart. A very costly lapse.

jaeger19 said:

The point being is that it was not JUST a zipper.. It was not a "mere zipper".. the gun was out of sight in a hidden pocket, she obviously wasn't far from the purse. etc.

Point being is that child proof caps are often ineffective... so does that mean that according to you.. ANY child that gets their hands on prescription medication.. has stupid irresponsible parents?

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Do we know if the toddler even got the gun out of the purse? He may have gotten a hand in there and on the trigger. My purse holsters are tight enough that my finger wont fit inside them to reach the trigger. But a teeny 2 yr old? Maybe

An excellent female strategy is to not even complete the draw but to fire from inside the purse. However you have to practice the angles and with a semi-auto you are only likely to get one shot because the slide may foul.

Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

Lursa said:

You know I respect you too. This is a very well thought out decision on my part and has been discussed a great deal on gun forums where there is definitely NOT consensus on the issue and many agree with you.

First...no harm is done, the business owner does not know. Concealed means concealed. Shirt and shoes have public health foundations and are obvious. lf a business does post no guns I will happily take my business to their competitors if I can.

The objection is a moral one and I'm not interested in the business owner's morals. Or yes, I may be. I no longer shop at Hobby Lobby. I do not patronize businesses where *I am aware of their moral views on an issue and I find it objectionable.* However they do not know any of my other views and I'm not interested in their opinions on my views or morals. And I keep my gun to myself just like I keep my opinions to myself when conducting business.

Some businesses have insurance obligations that require they post no guns on their businesses and the business owner may not even support that viewpoint. And no harm is done to them as, again, it's concealed.

Last, that business is not obligated to protect me in anyway should there be a crime committed there that threatens my life. Their security guards, if they have them, are to protect the store's property, etc. They have no intention of protecting me....that is always my responsibility and mine alone.

I realize you may not agree but I hope you will consider my perspective.

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yeah, damn, since it's you I have to consider your perspective. I trust you and your common sense. So I'll trust that you are being sensible about this. Everyone else on this forum - I'm skeptical! (smile)

Lursa said:

Do we know if the toddler even got the gun out of the purse? He may have gotten a hand in there and on the trigger. My purse holsters are tight enough that my finger wont fit inside them to reach the trigger. But a teeny 2 yr old? Maybe

An excellent female strategy is to not even complete the draw but to fire from inside the purse. However you have to practice the angles and with a semi-auto you are only likely to get one shot because the slide may foul.

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My impression from the story was the toddler reached in and somehow set off the trigger; I didn't think he pulled the gun. I could be wrong.

Lursa said:

Excuse me? Pocket carry *can be stupid* without a holster. Purse carry is no different than anything else....the gun doesnt go off unless you pull the trigger. I'm no more responsible for someone stealing it and getting my gun than if they stole it from my car or home....I'm not responsible for the actions of criminals.

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This 2 year old isn't a criminal, he's a 2 year old, and yes parents are responsible for keeping dangerous items away from children. This includes kitchen knives, household chemicals, keep the child from putting anything in an electrical outlet, etc.

shrubnose said:

I have seen video of someone texting while walking and falling in a canal!

Here it is:

You can cure ignorance with education but there's no cure for stupid. (That I know of.)

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Obviously we need to limit battery capacity so this doesn't happen to anyone else

jaeger19 said:

The point being is that it was not JUST a zipper.. It was not a "mere zipper".. the gun was out of sight in a hidden pocket, she obviously wasn't far from the purse. etc.

Point being is that child proof caps are often ineffective... so does that mean that according to you.. ANY child that gets their hands on prescription medication.. has stupid irresponsible parents?

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Preventing access begins by not placing the "contraband" within easy reach of the child (or pet). One does not have to be stupid to be irresponsible - common sense is not so common that mistakes are not made. My point, that you seem determined to "not get", is that by placing the super security purse, containing a "hidden" pocket, within easy reach of the child (that likely knew exactly what mommy's new purse was designed for) was irresponsible; as to whether it was stupid, or merely a lapse of conscious thought, is not relevant since the outcome speaks for itself.

Placing prescription medications in a secret pocket ("secured" by a zipper) is likewise neither smart nor responsible if that is located within easy reach of the child (or pet) since exploring and curiosity are natural actions. Anything dangerous, especially guns and drugs, requires more than simply placing them out of sight yet within easy reach. The first thing that I do with my pistol when I carry it is to insert the magazine and chamber a round - the first thing that I do after carrying it is to remove the magazine and clear the chambered round. I never store the pistol and the magazine(s) together even if I am "nearby" which you seem to define as within pistol range.

AJiveMan said:

From your own link:

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From your link:

(9) While in any motor vehicle, inside the limits or confines of any city, a person shall not carry a concealed weapon on or about his person without a license to carry a concealed weapon. This shall not apply to any firearm located in plain view whether it is loaded or unloaded. A firearm may be concealed legally in a motor vehicle so long as the weapon is disassembled or unloaded.

http://legislature.idaho.gov/idstat/Title18/T18CH33SECT18-3302.htm

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So you don't need a permit to carry in any rural setting, nor if you're carrying openly. And that link continues to say a permit holder is exempt from criminal background checks when buying a gun. Cool.

Lursa said:

Having a gun in your car 'encourages the owner to leave the gun unattended.'

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Exactly. So if you're going to leave a gun in your car you need to keep a trigger lock or similar in your car for it.

jaeger19 said:

And you cannot carry on school grounds.. and you cannot carry if the property owner forbids it.. and you cannot carry on college campuses unless you have an enhanced carry.. which is different than a regular concealed carry.

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This was a Walmart, not a school or collage.

Walmart's policy on guns is to comply with the local law, which means if the law allows it, Walmart allows it. Even if a manager got a hair up their ass and posted signs, carrying against the property owner's wishes is legal in ID.