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Toddler shoots and kills mother in Hayden Walmart

I'm sorry but I don't see here death as inevitable. She bought the NRA kool-aid and is dead for it. I'm sure she actually believed that her gun could never hurt her only make her safer. That is what the NRA is selling..peace of mind. It doesn't include any of the "ugly" side of gun ownership and neither do gun dealers. Like that fact that your own gun is 10 times more likely to kill you or a loved one than a bad guy. If she had known the risks she would probably be alive today...a lot of people would. Guns are not for everyone, and selling them like appliances is criminal negligence.

There were 35,000 automotive deaths last year, with 93% being attributed to driver error.

There is no great push for driver education in the US in spite of this.

There are alternative costs with every right or freedom that we have, and everything that we do.

Some folks educate themselves about risks, some do not, some do not care, and some just get lazy.
 
Toddler shoots and kills mother in Hayden Walmart

This is just a horribly tragic story and the reason it's so tragic is because it was so preventable.

I'm the VP of the local chapter of an organization that provides professional education for those in my career field. Every month our board meets to discuss the topics that we'll be covering in our seminars and inevitably we have a lot of interest in new topics and exciting topics and flashy topics. Hey, those topics put asses in the seats and that's part of our job. But there is another part of our job and that's to make sure that those who are member of our organization or attend our events are performing at the highest professional standards they can and in order to achieve that standard we also need to constantly reinforce the basics.

I'm a tax and accounting guy. I can run through your financial data faster than you can run a comb through your hair and can not only spot an anomaly from a mile away but can usually tell you why it's out of whack half an hour before I hit my billing minimum. That being said, I'm also human and when I get too used to doing the same thing the same way all the time that's when I get dangerous. I suspect that's what happened in Hayden and why some 2 year old no longer has a mommy.

Folks, if you're going to carry a firearm then you need to pay attention to the basics. It's how you protect others and yourself from tragedy caused by complacency. I'd like to use this thread to clarify and discuss the basics of daily carry and I'd like to hear, primarily, from those who do carry every day. I'd also like those who don't carry to ask questions so that we can address your concerns.

For starters, when you carry you need to be in control of your weapon. That means you don't hand it to someone else or leave it on the toilet tank. You don't just dump it into your purse or your pocket. You keep that weapon in such a manner that you KNOW it's safe, secure and under your immediate control. The specifics of how you do that are often dependent on exactly what kind of weapon you're carrying but one of the basics is your holster. USE ONE!!

Simply stuffing a pistol in your waistband or purse might look cool in the movies but it's stupid. Even a decent level I holster will provide more security than your waistband. As a minimum it should be enough to cover the trigger guard so that nothing can get stuck in there accidentally. It should also be made for the firearm you're using it with so that everything fits and stays secure.

One other thing, once your weapon is in its holster and under your control DON'T **** WITH IT! There is no need to play pocket pool with your pistol. The pistol doesn't care and isn't going to feel neglected. Leave it alone unless you absolutely need to use it. If you have to take it off for some reason (entering an area where firearms are prohibited, for example) then take it off pistol and holster together. This is a good reason for those who carry IWB to use clip on holsters.

This is just one suggestion. Please feel free to add more.

So true. Don't try "Mexican carry" or placing a small handgun in a pocket with the trigger unprotected.

A while back a guy doing this set off his gun as he was sitting down in a large auditorium near us. The bullet missed hitting anyone, thankfully.
 
As a matter of fact it appears that this lady was violating Idaho law. She was carrying a loaded concealed weapon.

Learn more here: In Idaho gun tragedy, does it matter that mother took precautions? - CSMonitor.com

Nothing that this lady did stopped this from happening.
From your linked article:
Veronica’s father-in-law, Terry Rutledge, told The Washington Post that he took issue with the immediate reaction by some to blame Rutledge.

He might want to blame the maker of the purse.

After reviewing video of the shooting, police quickly established that it was an accident. But despite the precautions, somehow the toddler managed to extricate the gun and fire a chambered round. It’s against the law in Idaho to carry a loaded concealed gun.

So, basically, she was not a responsible gun owner. Glad we got that cleared up now. +1
 
They said that about the little boy who accidentally shot his classmate over in Bremerton. I dont know if they lied intentionally or not (media). They said he dropped the backpack with the semi-auto in it on the desk and it went off. That's a lie, it has to be. I dont know if they were just ignorant or were trying to protect the boy. I saw the gun on the news....modern semi-auto. It didnt go off accidentally when dropped. He has his hand in that backpack, fiddling with the gun.

well I dunno how familiar you are with Kitsap County Politics, I grew up in Kitsap Co. there was a whole backstory there the media didn't cover.

The gun in that case belonged to Douglas Bauer (whom I know personally, he drives the local city bus, I used to take the city bus to school). in 1994 or 95 I can't remember exactly, Douglas Bauer was driving home off of the SR-16 Freeway and a road rage driver followed him home to his house off of Mullenix Road, Bauer was assaulted in his driveway and pulled a gun from his car and shot his attacker.

The Sheriff's office arrested him, and I think the outgoing Prosecutor, C Danny Clem, didn't file charges, but the new Prosectuor, Russell Hauge, took it as a project, charged bauer with murder, and took it to trial, the jury found Bauer not guilty and ordered Hauge to repay Bauers legal blls.

well when the shooting happened in Bremerton, Russell Hauge was still serving as prosecutor, and he saw a chance to get revenge on Bauer. so he charged Bauer with assault and struck a plea deal with the kid in exchange for testimony. I went to the county courthouse and read the documents filed by the prosecutor, there's the first statement, called "information" where the prosecutor lays out the case, well attached to Information was the reports of two Bremerton Police Officers, now pay close attention, both officers stated that they didn't touch the gun, but that the BPD Captain, Wolfe is his name, took the gun out of the backpack and cleared it, but there's no report from Wolfe in the filings. and the newspaper doesn't know to ask the question, if the gun went off in the backpack from being dropped, was their anything wrong with it? did an HK armorer look at it? and when Wolfe "cleared it" was a live round expelled? because if the gun was cramped in a backpack, it would probably stovepipe and no new round would be in it.

see the newspaper dropped the ball on its reporting.
 
There are purses with built in holsters. Regardless of how it was secured in her purse, part of being a responsible gun owner is positive control of your weapon at all times. The purse (with a gun in it) should not have been accessible to the child. Period.

Except that's simply not a reality. if its accessible to her.. its accessible to others. Its the nature of the beast in concealed carry. If you can get to it.. so can others.

Its unreasonable to hold a person responsible for seeing and preventing EVERY eventuality. Period.
 
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It appears to me that she didn't learn what she really needed to know from that class.

If we had a time machine we could run her through that class again.

*sigh* shopping in Walmart with 4 kids. Not too much to keep you preoccupied.

It was probably just an instant where she stepped away So very sad.

We all commit these errors in life....and often dodge the bullet (pun intended). But not always.
 
She was not violating the state laws - the article is wrong.

Carrying an unloaded concealed weapon is stupid and pointless.

Gun & Weapon Laws - Idaho.gov

Incorrect:

CONCEALED WEAPONS

Idaho law requires a license to carry a concealed weapon. Concealed weapon licenses can be obtained from your County Sheriff for $20, and is valid for five years. Renewal is $15.

You may carry a firearm in your vehicle inside the city limits or confines of a city, as long as it is in plain view, loaded or unloaded. But if you are going to conceal it, the firearm must be disassembled or unloaded.
Gun & Weapon Laws - Idaho.gov

From your own link:
http://www.idaho.gov/laws_rules/firearm.html
You may carry a firearm in your vehicle inside the city limits or confines of a city, as long as it is in plain view, loaded or unloaded. But if you are going to conceal it, the firearm must be disassembled or unloaded.
 
Except that's simply not a reality. if its accessible to her.. its accessible to others. Its the nature of the beast in concealed carry. If you can get to it.. so can others.

Its unreasonable to hold a person responsible for seeing and preventing EVERY eventuality. Period.
Leaving a loaded gun in a purse with a toddler in a shopping cart unattended is not an unforeseeable eventuality. It was careless.

I have several carry holsters. Yes...someone could wrestle with me and attempt to take control of my weapon. Thats not at all the same thing as if I set my weapon in the holster on a desk and walked away.
 
As a matter of fact it appears that this lady was violating Idaho law. She was carrying a loaded concealed weapon.

Learn more here: In Idaho gun tragedy, does it matter that mother took precautions? - CSMonitor.com

Nothing that this lady did stopped this from happening.

Lets look at the Idaho law in question

18-3302 (7)
(7) Except in the person's place of abode or fixed place of business, or on property in which the person has any ownership or leasehold interest, a person shall not carry a concealed weapon without a license to carry a concealed weapon. For the purposes of this section, a concealed weapon means any dirk, dirk knife, bowie knife, dagger, pistol, revolver or any other deadly or dangerous weapon.

From your linked article

Rutledge, who lived in Blackfoot, was a high school valedictorian who had gone on to become a chemist at Idaho National Lab. At the same time, she and her husband had extensive shooting experience, and were both licensed – and trained – to carry concealed weapons.
 
Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

That depends upon the caliber and strength of the recoil spring.

A toddler would be more capable of flipping off a safety as opposed to chambering a round.

My son could rack the slide on a 5" .45 1911 when he was 8 years old, and a 9mm XD when he was 5.

Lack of access is the only safe way with kids and guns.

I would politely suggest a manner other than off-body (purse) carry.

Please be very careful.

I'm not around any kids.

But I didnt realize that she had 3 other kids with her....not all toddlers so she really did need to have control over her purse at all times.
 
Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

How did you get that from this?



Jump to conclusions much?

Yes. Otherwise what's the difference between them snatching my purse with a gun in it as opposed to not having one in it?

However if I was wrong, I apologize.
 
Will any of that bring her back to life? :roll:

I didn't think that it would.
 
Or run a red light. I drive truck for a living, you'd be amazed just how many people you can see texting while driving when you can look down at them

And I am in much more danger from them every day than I am from a person legally carrying a gun. And I think about it and attempt to factor it into my driving. *That* scares me.
 
Guns don't kill people-2 year old boys with guns kill people,eh?

Now we just need to pass a law making it illegal for 2 year old children to handle guns.

So do 2 year old kids driving cars.

What's your point, other than to just bitch about it?

There is no 'we' here, as we are talking about the US, where you are not.
 
There were 35,000 automotive deaths last year, with 93% being attributed to driver error.

There is no great push for driver education in the US in spite of this.

There are alternative costs with every right or freedom that we have, and everything that we do.

Some folks educate themselves about risks, some do not, some do not care, and some just get lazy.

This was not about an adult having a preventable accident. It was about an adult who left a loaded weapon where a toddler could get it.

DO you need to have a big push in drivers ed to tell you NOT to allow your toddler to be in reach of the steering wheel?

Most gun owners are very responsible. This gun owner was not. Why is that so difficult to understand. If she had not been killed and the toddler shot an innocent bystander...she would be facing criminal and civil charges.
 
This was not about an adult having a preventable accident. It was about an adult who left a loaded weapon where a toddler could get it.

DO you need to have a big push in drivers ed to tell you NOT to allow your toddler to be in reach of the steering wheel?

Most gun owners are very responsible. This gun owner was not. Why is that so difficult to understand. If she had not been killed and the toddler shot an innocent bystander...she would be facing criminal and civil charges.

I would call this a preventable accident on the part of an adult, it's not the kids fault, he didn't know any better.

A few years ago an airline pilot let his kid take the yoke and tragedy resulted, killed many more people then just his dad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_593
 
This was not about an adult having a preventable accident. It was about an adult who left a loaded weapon where a toddler could get it.

DO you need to have a big push in drivers ed to tell you NOT to allow your toddler to be in reach of the steering wheel?

Most gun owners are very responsible. This gun owner was not. Why is that so difficult to understand. If she had not been killed and the toddler shot an innocent bystander...she would be facing criminal and civil charges.

It was preventable.

It is completely clear to me.

Your response shows a distinct lack of understanding of the discussion here.
 
Oh right because men can't put guns into backpacks or anything :roll: Please take your sexism somewhere else.

If you're going to carry a gun then it should remain within your 'intimate space' (from your skin and out to about an inch), not your 'personal space' (approximately your arm-span around your body), or 'social space' (from the end of your arm's reach out to about 6ft, the approximate distance you would typically stand from someone when having a normal conversation). Purse holsters encourage the owner to leave the gun unattended.

Ridiculous statement, poorly worded.

Having a gun in your car 'encourages the owner to leave the gun unattended.'

There are different methods of control with purses, different draws, different issues. But in the long run it is about level of responsibility which must always be high regarding firearms.
 
Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

I'm not around any kids.

But I didnt realize that she had 3 other kids with her....not all toddlers so she really did need to have control over her purse at all times.

And hell...they were at Wal-Mart. Lots of folks around to peruse her unattended purse.

I am at a loss for the folks dismissing this case as a simple accident.I have to wonder if they have ever been around toddlers.;)

I would think most gun owners would scream at the top of their lungs "we are NOT like that" "don't lump us in with people who as irresponsible as she was"
 
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