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Toddler shoots and kills mother in Hayden Walmart

EMNofSeattle said:
Well they're not a good idea from your viewpoint as a man.
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Oh right because men can't put guns into backpacks or anything :roll: Please take your sexism somewhere else.

If you're going to carry a gun then it should remain within your 'intimate space' (from your skin and out to about an inch), not your 'personal space' (approximately your arm-span around your body), or 'social space' (from the end of your arm's reach out to about 6ft, the approximate distance you would typically stand from someone when having a normal conversation). Purse holsters encourage the owner to leave the gun unattended.
 
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Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

Lursa said:
Not just moms, not just regular people. Had a cop here do something similar. Left loaded gun in glove box, a 7 yr old and his sister in the van, and went into store. 7 yr old gets dad's gun and accidentally kills sister.

Stupid and careless is stupid and careless...crosses all boundaries. :(
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I agree.
I myself am not even totally guilt free, I have been careless at times looking back but never anything like this.
 
Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

SMTA said:
They make ballistic nylon handgun fanny packs that can be carried on a strong belt and have painfully strong attachments and shoulder straps that could be used for over-the-shoulder carry.

How Do I Hide This Thing? | Cornered Cat
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I have several different ones, all designed for carry, but fanny packs scream "gun!" Plus I believe that fanny packs should be carried over the fanny...out of reach altho they work on the side too. I can have my hand on my gun, in my purse, walking thru a parking lot, and no one is the wiser. I just look like I'm getting my keys.

BTW, I know Kathy (Cornered Cat)...she's here in WA St.
 
Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

Article said:
The preliminary investigation shows the shooting was an accident, Miller said.
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How can we be sure?

Some toddlers are just...bad.

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Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

Lursa said:
Self defense classes do not teach that, at least that I know of. You are taught to carry the gun as it was designed, with a round in the chamber.

However if you have kids or other extenuating circumstances, I can see taking the precaution of not chambering. To me, yes, they seem somewhat like 'a rock' that way but that's an exaggeration IMO. I think the same about trigger locks, etc but people with kids have to take alot of extra care with their guns. The guns are still useful, just less immediately so. You have to balance your life and circumstances to see which risks are higher...immediacy or kid access.
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The way I see it, if youre gonna carry a round in the chamber of a semi-auto and it doesnt have a manual safety then make sure you have it in a holster that covers the trigger guard, otherwise you will be asking for trouble. Even the Glock factory highly recommends this. Do not ever Mexican carry a chambered semi auto- real life isnt Hollywood.
 
Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

Moderator's Warning:
Duplicate threads merged
 
Jerry said:
Oh right because men can't put guns into backpacks or anything :roll: Please take your sexism somewhere else.
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Not sexism, reality. Go look at the women's clothing aisle at the store, not many option there ideal for hiding firearms. And carrying in a bag is more comfortable. I use a fanny pack holster when running or bicycling, more more comfortable them anything you put on your belt.

The other thing is, I was teaching a woman to shoot, and the belt loops on her jeans weren't wide enough to allow a pistol belt to be inserted, women's trousers evidentially have thinner belt loops
 
Jerry said:
In Heller, the Supreme Court already ruled that being forced to keep the gun in an unready state defeats practical use of the gun and thus violates the 2nd Amendment.

Try again.
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Wasn't talking about forcing them. I was saying a parent may want to have trigger locks on their guns so their kids don't shoot themselves or someone else accidentally. Apologize if that wasn't clear.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Or run a red light. I drive truck for a living, you'd be amazed just how many people you can see texting while driving when you can look down at them
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False equivalency. If you would like to make a more appropriate comparison - would you ever let your toddler have access to the steering wheel ?

She broke a crucial rule for someone with a CCW.
 
shrubnose said:
We're not talking about every time here. This thread is about this one, specific, case. And in this case it looks like the mother who left her unsecured gun in her purse in a shopping basket with a 2-year old child is responsible for her own death.

Who else would you like to blame? :roll:


This was not an accident. The lady in this story is dead because she failed to secure her gun.
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Actually according to the report.. her gun was secured in her purse in a purse specially designed for concealed carry. I am familiar with these type of purses.. they have a hidden pocket, that is dedicated for the gun.. its not like it was in the main bag, or main compartment with her other belongings.. that she was going in and out of. Which by the way... is probably the MAIN way that women carry concealed.. in a main pocket in a purse.. not in a dedicated concealed carry bag. This lady was likely much more secured in her carry than the vast majority of females that carry.

By all accounts this WAS an accident. I don't find a need to blame anyone... things happen. That's it.
 
year2late said:
Make your analogy more appropriate to the situation.

Would you EVER leave your toddler at or near the steering wheel?

If you say yes, I would say you didn't just make a mistake, you showed absolute disregard for the safety of others.

I have to wonder, if the toddler shot an innocent bystander - it is clear the toddler would not be charged - what charges would the mother face?
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I doubt there would have been any charges, the NRA would see to that. That is also part of the problem. If it was clear that when a minor gets your gun anything he does with it is your responsibility perhaps gun owners would be more careful. As it is, these incidents are just a terrible "accidents" with no blame.
 
year2late said:
Make your analogy more appropriate to the situation.

Would you EVER leave your toddler at or near the steering wheel?

If you say yes, I would say you didn't just make a mistake, you showed absolute disregard for the safety of others.

I have to wonder, if the toddler shot an innocent bystander - it is clear the toddler would not be charged - what charges would the mother face?
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The whole point of this thread was to reinforce the idea that firearm safety is a 24/7 deal. I'm pretty sure that I covered that in the OP and again in various other posts. We have a choice in situations such as this. We can run around waving our hands in the air and screaming "The Horror! The Horror!" or we can discuss basic safety.

I have no desire to use this tragic incident to disparage decent people who might occasionally make a mistake. They're human and humans sometimes make mistakes.
 
iguanaman said:
I doubt there would have been any charges, the NRA would see to that. That is also part of the problem. If it was clear that when a minor gets your gun anything he does with it is your responsibility perhaps gun owners would be more careful. As it is, these incidents are just a terrible "accidents" with no blame.
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There are plenty of charges that could cover this type of instance, reckless endangerment, endangering the welfare of a minor, neglect. Prosecutors however do not want to pursue such charges generally speaking, partially because of the belief, correct belief I might add, that there is very little the criminal justice system can do to make a more severe sanctions in the accident itself. In some cases prosecutors may also believe that juries will be unlikely to convect. A couple years ago in Marysville Washington, A police officer left his gun in his car with his son and daughter also in the car, The sun got a hold of the gun and shot the daughter by accident, I think he was four years old, The Snohomish County prosecutor brought the officer up on multiple charges and took it to trial, and the jury was about evenly split it was a hung jury.
 
paddymcdougall said:
Wasn't talking about forcing them. I was saying a parent may want to have trigger locks on their guns so their kids don't shoot themselves or someone else accidentally. Apologize if that wasn't clear.
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You were clear. You're talking about putting a trigger lock on a gun you are carrying for personal defense. Not a gun that you're putting away, not a gun that you're storing in your car for a few hours, but a gun you're keeping on you just in case the dice roll against you and some punk pulls a knife and wants your wallet. If there's a trigger lock on your gun at that moment, your gun is useless.

The solution here is to not leave your gun in a bag and move away from it; to always keep your gun on your person and under your 'positive control'.
 
There are deaths caused by accidents and deaths caused by ignorance. Think about how that 2 year old will go through life from now on. Also, don't lose sight of the ever growing number of Americans arming themselves in the name of protection. My conceal carry program was quite easy to pass and I was stunned at the ineptness of some of the people on the gun range. The ones that never have so much as held a pistol were reason to consider getting the hell out of there until they were done. Now, in Texas one does not have to re-qualify at the range ever and I don't agree with that.
 
rhinefire said:
There are deaths caused by accidents and deaths caused by ignorance. Think about how that 2 year old will go through life from now on. Also, don't lose sight of the ever growing number of Americans arming themselves in the name of protection. My conceal carry program was quite easy to pass and I was stunned at the ineptness of some of the people on the gun range. The ones that never have so much as held a pistol were reason to consider getting the hell out of there until they were done. Now, in Texas one does not have to re-qualify at the range ever and I don't agree with that.
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When should not have to do training exercise a fundamental right. In Washington we don't require any training at all to get a concealed carry license just to clean criminal background.
 
Jerry said:
You were clear. You're talking about putting a trigger lock on a gun you are carrying for personal defense. Not a gun that you're putting away, not a gun that you're storing in your car for a few hours, but a gun you're keeping on you just in case the dice roll against you and some punk pulls a knife and wants your wallet. If there's a trigger lock on your gun at that moment, your gun is useless.

The solution here is to not leave your gun in a bag and move away from it; to always keep your gun on your person and under your 'positive control'.
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There is more than one solution here.
 
paddymcdougall said:
I don't understand not having the safety on when a gun is in the purse. ESPECIALLY with kids around. So many stories of guns getting dropped and firing, much less the many things that can go wrong with kids.

On comments on the article on one site, several posters said not all guns have safeties. But if you are a parent - especially with young kids - how could you buy a gun without a safety?

I feel very sorry for this family. And the op is right- it was so easily preventable.

I suppose there are lots of parents carrying guns, shopping in WalMart, whose kids never fire their guns. But please - take all precautions when carrying such dangerous items.
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Even safer here, would have been not having a round chambered. As a rule it's better to carry with a round chambered but there are many concessions to safety you have to make with kids around. But a toddler cannot rack the slide to chamber a round and it certainly wouldnt be accidental.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Of course it wasn't responsible, you gonna go say that in person to the family?

They're grieving ok, that's why things like that are said, respect for the dead and all
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Then you leave the comment out. You dont print irresponsible comments just to make people feel better. THen no one learns and others may suffer.

Deaths are not in vain if people can learn lessons from them.
 
rhinefire said:
There are deaths caused by accidents and deaths caused by ignorance. Think about how that 2 year old will go through life from now on. Also, don't lose sight of the ever growing number of Americans arming themselves in the name of protection. My conceal carry program was quite easy to pass and I was stunned at the ineptness of some of the people on the gun range. The ones that never have so much as held a pistol were reason to consider getting the hell out of there until they were done. Now, in Texas one does not have to re-qualify at the range ever and I don't agree with that.
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Range qualification is oh so very overrated. Anyone can hit a paper target in a calm and comfortable setting.
 
Lutherf said:
The whole point of this thread was to reinforce the idea that firearm safety is a 24/7 deal. I'm pretty sure that I covered that in the OP and again in various other posts. We have a choice in situations such as this. We can run around waving our hands in the air and screaming "The Horror! The Horror!" or we can discuss basic safety.

I have no desire to use this tragic incident to disparage decent people who might occasionally make a mistake. They're human and humans sometimes make mistakes.
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Good point. That lady was a rocket scientist and she was an experienced shooter. But she let her guard down for one instant and paid for it with her life and her son will have to live with that for the rest of his life. Really sad.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Well I would never carry a gun without a transfer bar or fire pin block safety, my revolvers are all modern double action, I carry all chambers loaded, I have no qualms about doing so.

I know the cowboy action guns should be carried that way, although ruger now makes the vaquero with a transfer bar safety that is safe to carry all six
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LOL carrying the Vaqueros would be like carrying bricks, they are all stainless. I own 2 but I dont carry them for protection.

Sorry, just a comment, it struck me funny.
 
Lutherf said:
The whole point of this thread was to reinforce the idea that firearm safety is a 24/7 deal. I'm pretty sure that I covered that in the OP and again in various other posts. We have a choice in situations such as this. We can run around waving our hands in the air and screaming "The Horror! The Horror!" or we can discuss basic safety.

I have no desire to use this tragic incident to disparage decent people who might occasionally make a mistake. They're human and humans sometimes make mistakes.
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I have made it abundantly clear that the takeaway from this tragedy should be firearm safety - learning from her mistakes.

But realistically, if the toddler had shot a clerk rather than the firearm owner, the firearm owner would be facing some criminal charges and likely civil penalties as well. She didn't have simple error in judgment, she totally disregarded the rules of CCP and her obligations as a mother.

I believe we do a great disservice the predominantly responsible firearm owners to see her errors as being less than they are.

I think the over-reaction to this issue (from anti-gun folks) be because her error was not seen as bad as it was. It was bad as a CCP holder it was bad as a parent.

Unfortunately she will never be able to learn from her own mistakes - but others can.
 
Jerry said:
Sure, but trigger locks aren't one.

Another solution is to keep your purse on you if that's where your gun is.
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You do not need a trigger lock to keep your gun inaccessible to your children. You need respect for your duty/responsibility as a gun owner.
 
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