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Toddler shoots and kills mother in Hayden Walmart

Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

Ahlevah said:
Without our gun culture we'd probably still be British, too. Or, at least, our judges would be wearing wigs. ;)
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I could never bring myself to worship a German lady... :2razz:
 
Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

PoS said:
I could never bring myself to worship a German lady... :2razz:
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We worship Colt, Remington, and Winchester and leave the Brits to worship the Germans. :mrgreen:
 
WillyPete said:
Surely you agree that the level of preparation is wildly different between a soldier or police officer and most moms.
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You would be surprised, civilians are often better trained than police and soldiers.

WillyPete said:
A manual safety would have prevented this specific tragedy.
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I see no reason to assume the child couldn't turn the saftey off.

I feel like you're ok with a 2 year old handling a loaded firearm as long as the gun has a manual safety.

The presence or absence of a manual safety isn't the issue. The gun being left where the 2 year old could get to it is the issue. No training class can make sure you never leave your gun in a bag and step away.
 
cpgrad08 said:
I know you like Glocks TD and that' fine I just personally think they are some of the worst guns made of all time. Everyday I become more and more a revolver man.
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Really curious to hear why you think Glocks are such bad guns.

Personally there is no gun I would rather carry. I carried one on 2 combat deployments and it is my personal carry weapon. They are also the choice of tons of police and military units as well as competition shooters. They have done tortute tests that most other guns wouldn't have stood a chance in. The Glock pretty much changed the handgun world.

What is it about them you hate.
 
Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

Tim the plumber said:
Hey, I'm British. I look at American gun culture and think you are all mad and seem to want to live in the wild west.
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The wild-west wasn't as wild as you think:
Dispelling the myth of 'The Wild West' - Minneapolis gun rights | Examiner.com


In his book, Frontier Violence: Another Look, author W. Eugene Hollon, provides us with these astonishing facts:


  • [*]In Abilene, Ellsworth, Wichita, Dodge City, and Caldwell, for the years from 1870 to 1885, there were only 45 total homicides. This equates to a rate of approximately 1 murder per 100,000 residents per year.
    [*]In Abilene, supposedly one of the wildest of the cow towns, not a single person was killed in 1869 or 1870.


Zooming forward over a century to 2007, a quick look at Uniform Crime Report statistics shows us the following regarding the aforementioned gun control “paradise” cities of the east:

  • DC – 183 Murders (31 per 100,000 residents)
  • New York – 494 Murders (6 per 100,000 residents)
  • Baltimore – 281 Murders (45 per 100,000 residents)
  • Newark – 104 Murders (37 per 100,000 residents)
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Do you think we own cars because we want to live on a race track? Do you think we own computers because we want to live in The Matrix? Do you think we invest money because we want to own banks?
 
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braindrain said:
Really curious to hear why you think Glocks are such bad guns.

Personally there is no gun I would rather carry. I carried one on 2 combat deployments and it is my personal carry weapon. They are also the choice of tons of police and military units as well as competition shooters. They have done tortute tests that most other guns wouldn't have stood a chance in. The Glock pretty much changed the handgun world.

What is it about them you hate.
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Horrible feel, not accrute, and everyone I have ever use jams or fails to feed about every 5th round.
 
TurtleDude said:
glocks don't have manual safeties

its why they are so popular with the police and competitive action shooters

its why my son uses them for steel competitions and why my wife has one in a lockbox under the bed

its why I NEVER carry one concealed
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I honestly don't get what the big worry a lot of folks seem to have over CCing a Glock. As long as your weapon is in a decently designed holster there is zero chance of it firing while being carried.
My work one has sat in my holster thru 2 trips down range and tons of training events and never once fired unless I pulled the trigger. That is with climbing over walls, in and out of countless vehicles, running through woods, crawling thru brush, fast roping out of birds and pretty much anything else you can think of. That's a fair amount more activity than your average CCer so I really just don't get the concern.
 
cpgrad08 said:
Horrible feel, not accrute, and everyone I have ever use jams or fails to feed about every 5th round.
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1) i find Glocks just as accurate as Berettas sigs, and SW MPs. I know because I have won matches with all of those and my son constantly is beating 95% of the top steel shooters in SW Ohio with a Glock and lots of those shooters are using STI target pistols, CZ SP-01s or Shadows

2) My son shot 30 steel matches this summer with a GLOCK 34 using my reloads. HE HAD ONE jam and it was one that had a bit too much wax on the lead bullet thats. 2500+ rounds with ONE FTF. last year he had Zero Jams and that is a kid who at that time was under 120 pounds.
 
cpgrad08 said:
Horrible feel, not accrute, and everyone I have ever use jams or fails to feed about every 5th round.
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The feel I get as that is a subjective thing and everyone is different. As to the rest I find that pretty strange. Not saying you are lying or anything just strange.
Glocks are good enough for them to be huge in the competition world where accuracy is quite important, now some people don't shoot them accurately but that is not the guns fault.
My personal experience along with tons of military units and police departments choose them in large part due to their extreme reliability. I have put thousands and thousands of rounds thru Glocks and can count on one hand how many jams I have had that I didn't intentionally induce.
 
TurtleDude said:
1) i find Glocks just as accurate as Berettas sigs, and SW MPs. I know because I have won matches with all of those and my son constantly is beating 95% of the top steel shooters in SW Ohio with a Glock and lots of those shooters are using STI target pistols, CZ SP-01s or Shadows

2) My son shot 30 steel matches this summer with a GLOCK 34 using my reloads. HE HAD ONE jam and it was one that had a bit too much wax on the lead bullet thats. 2500+ rounds with ONE FTF. last year he had Zero Jams and that is a kid who at that time was under 120 pounds.
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braindrain said:
The feel I get as that is a subjective thing and everyone is different. As to the rest I find that pretty strange. Not saying you are lying or anything just strange.
Glocks are good enough for them to be huge in the competition world where accuracy is quite important, now some people don't shoot them accurately but that is not the guns fault.
My personal experience along with tons of military units and police departments choose them in large part due to their extreme reliability. I have put thousands and thousands of rounds thru Glocks and can count on one hand how many jams I have had that I didn't intentionally induce.
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That's nice but for me every Glock I have used was a POS.
 
cpgrad08 said:
That's nice but for me every Glock I have used was a POS.
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I have owned over two dozen, carried one in some job situations since it was what they issued US Marshals and shot another 20 or so extensively at training facilities. I might have had 10 jams in over 50,000 rounds and it was usually crappy ammo. I am pretty confident I can hit a soda pop can almost every time at 25 yards with ANY GLOCK model. with a 34, a 35 a 17L or a 24 it would be every time
 
TurtleDude said:
1) i find Glocks just as accurate as Berettas sigs, and SW MPs. I know because I have won matches with all of those and my son constantly is beating 95% of the top steel shooters in SW Ohio with a Glock and lots of those shooters are using STI target pistols, CZ SP-01s or Shadows

2) My son shot 30 steel matches this summer with a GLOCK 34 using my reloads. HE HAD ONE jam and it was one that had a bit too much wax on the lead bullet thats. 2500+ rounds with ONE FTF. last year he had Zero Jams and that is a kid who at that time was under 120 pounds.
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I've shot Glock's for years. Then today I borrowed a friends Beretta compact L 92. Fire 10 rounds and repeatedly hit center of target with no issues. Much better than I have shot any Glock. I think my next gun purchase will be a Beretta I think the Beretta is much more inherently accurate than the Glock
 
EMNofSeattle said:
I've shot Glock's for years. Then today I borrowed a friends Beretta compact L 92. Fire 10 rounds and repeatedly hit center of target with no issues. Much better than I have shot any Glock. I think my next gun purchase will be a Beretta I think the Beretta is much more inherently accurate than the Glock
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But you shooting the beretta more accuratly than a glock is not the same thing as the beretta being more accurate. Only that you shot the beretta better. I see this a lot with 1911 guys. They are used to the trigger on a 1911 and when they shoot a Glock the don't shoot it as well and right away claim the Glock is inaccurate when the truth is they just can't shoot it accuratly. I had the same problem when my unit switched from M9s to Glock 19s. It took me a fair amount of time before I could use the Glock as effectively. Now I am more accurate with a Glock and my split times and other pro timer work are quite a bit faster

No the L92 may be a more accurate but two guns inherent accuracy should not be judged by 1 shooter and one or two examples of each weapon.
 
Jerry said:
They really need to stop calling it a "safety" anyway because of rule #1 "always treat a firearm as if it's loaded"...we never treat a firearm as if it's "safe".

When I see well meaning people talk about not chambering a round or only carrying a gun with a manual safety...see I just did it right there...I empathize and somewhat agree with what they're saying, but it's frustrating to me that a gun owner would ever regard their gun as "safe" because they did those things.
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In my view its having an extra layer of safety. If there is no round in the chamber its virtually impossible for an accidental discharge to happen. However, I respect others who are highly trained enough that do chamber their weapons, I have no problems with them, I myself just prefer to be somewhat safer and I'll trade that extra time that I have to ready my weapon in an emergency with that extra layer of safety.
 
PoS said:
In my view its having an extra layer of safety. If there is no round in the chamber its virtually impossible for an accidental discharge to happen. However, I respect others who are highly trained enough that do chamber their weapons, I have no problems with them, I myself just prefer to be somewhat safer and I'll trade that extra time that I have to ready my weapon in an emergency with that extra layer of safety.
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From reading here, I'm not sure people realize how fast and hard violence happens. I keep a round chambered. If someone grabs me, and has one arm or one arm trapped....I'm screwed. You need to be able to shoot in an instant, while moving, maybe grappling, maybe from the ground. That's why I also wont have a grip safety. (a thumb safety yes).

If you need that firearm, you have already been targeted by a predator, you are possibly behind the curve reacting. You need every second and every advantage because they have already scoped out the situation and arranged it to THEIR advantage. Your best hope is that they dont realize you are armed and that you can use that firearm immediately.
 
Lursa said:
From reading here, I'm not sure people realize how fast and hard violence happens. I keep a round chambered. If someone grabs me, and has one arm or one arm trapped....I'm screwed. You need to be able to shoot in an instant, while moving, maybe grappling, maybe from the ground. That's why I also wont have a grip safety. (a thumb safety yes).

If you need that firearm, you have already been targeted by a predator, you are possibly behind the curve reacting. You need every second and every advantage because they have already scoped out the situation and arranged it to THEIR advantage. Your best hope is that they dont realize you are armed and that you can use that firearm immediately.
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Look I understand where youre coming from and I respect your reasons for keeping a round chambered. Im just speaking strictly for myself in regards to why I dont chamber a round when I carry. To me if someone is within hand to hand range I probably wouldnt use a gun and I have studied and trained in martial arts so Im not gonna wrestle with him on the ground trying to pull my gun out, instead I'll just use hand to hand combatives till he is no longer a threat or until I am far enough away where I can pull out my gun, rack and fire.
 
Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

Ahlevah said:
Without our gun culture we'd probably still be British, too. Or, at least, our judges would be wearing wigs. ;)
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Which is worse;

1 Having judges look especially formal in higher courts. or,

2 Being randomly shot when somebody accidentally fires their gun whilst fumbling for their car keys.

?
 
Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

TurtleDude said:
that's silly. and I remember Britain after WWI-lots of Brits got rid of their guns. They thought that would prevent another WW. It didn't. and with the Nazis threatening an invasion, the gunless Brits were afraid and asked US to help them out. My grandfather did-he sent several weapons to britain including a Springfield Rifle and a Mauser 98 he had taken as a war trophy in France Circa 1918. The Nazis never invaded but had they tried, Britain would have been much better prepared due to AMERICAN gun owners donating THOUSANDS OF VALUABLE weapons to our British friends
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Do you seriously believe that?

That was a propaganda thing. I very much doubt that the guns ever made it across the Atlantic. Germany was not defeated by small arms. If you need to fight a state you will need a lot more than a few old rifles of many different ammunition types.
 
PoS said:
In my view its having an extra layer of safety. If there is no round in the chamber its virtually impossible for an accidental discharge to happen. However, I respect others who are highly trained enough that do chamber their weapons, I have no problems with them, I myself just prefer to be somewhat safer and I'll trade that extra time that I have to ready my weapon in an emergency with that extra layer of safety.
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There is no "high training" for carrying a chambered pistol and not having an incident. There's no class for that, no drill. You just put the chambered gun in the holster, and that's it.

Maybe practicing structured nonobservance and leaving the gun alone once it's holstered is the thing to train for.
 
Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

Jerry said:
The wild-west wasn't as wild as you think:

Do you think we own cars because we want to live on a race track? Do you think we own computers because we want to live in The Matrix? Do you think we invest money because we want to own banks?
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DC – 183 Murders (31 per 100,000 residents)
New York – 494 Murders (6 per 100,000 residents)
Baltimore – 281 Murders (45 per 100,000 residents)
Newark – 104 Murders (37 per 100,000 residents)
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OK, maybe the wild west as on John Wayne films.

You tell me why do you get so attached to tools of death? Why define yourself by such things?
 
Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

Tim the plumber said:

OK, maybe the wild west as on John Wayne films.

You tell me why do you get so attached to tools of death? Why define yourself by such things?
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I don't know that I've ever 'defined' myself. In fact I'm not even sure what that means.
 
Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

Tim the plumber said:
Do you seriously believe that?

That was a propaganda thing. I very much doubt that the guns ever made it across the Atlantic. Germany was not defeated by small arms. If you need to fight a state you will need a lot more than a few old rifles of many different ammunition types.
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I know I don't have two nice rifles I would have ended up with and a couple other guns because my grandfather sent them off to England I also know I have nothing but contempt for what your government did to pistol shooters after Dunblane
 
EMNofSeattle said:
When should not have to do training exercise a fundamental right. In Washington we don't require any training at all to get a concealed carry license just to clean criminal background.
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Makes one wonder why all police and militaries throughout the entire planet train their people. Why not save money and simply give them a weapon.
 
rhinefire said:
Makes one wonder why all police and militaries throughout the entire planet train their people. Why not save money and simply give them a weapon.
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Regular citizens are not going into combat situations. Military training is inconsistent with civilian self-defense.
 
Re: Mom Shot, Killed By 2-Year-Old Son at Walmart

Tim the plumber said:

OK, maybe the wild west as on John Wayne films.

You tell me why do you get so attached to tools of death? Why define yourself by such things?
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Haha "tools of death". The reason we in America cherrish firearms is because it's what gained us our Freedom from a repressive kingdom. We then made a vow to our countrymen that we'd allow our citizens to keep these "tools of death" to prevent our government from becoming like England- too controlling.
 
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