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Thread: NATO flag lowered in Afghanistan as combat mission ends

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    Re: NATO flag lowered in Afghanistan as combat mission ends

    Quote Originally Posted by 11Bravo View Post
    Sorry, I always get a little heated when I see that question.

    -I would say that we are ending our combat mission. It's now a tactical training operation rather than a war. It's time for the Afghans to fight their own extremism. However, I really don't see this working.
    I understand. I appreciate the passion. I think people need to be clear. The war against Afghanistan ended in 2001. The war against Iraq ended May of 2003. Since those dates we have established relationships with both governments and their military. Clearly we arent 'at war' with either country. Now...if we are in 'post war ops' ala Germany and Japan post WW2, then all of this should be expected and we should still be working with newly formed allies (even if that means doing it differently).

    Theres a whole lot of people that think this is all still The War against Afghanistan. When Obama declares it is over, many of his supporters will say he 'ended' the war with Afghanistan. We need to be quite clear about what is 'ending'. What is ending is sustained combat ops against an enemy that while ousted and hiding in caves, still represents a threat.

    Personally...I think Bush made a mistake in post war ops in both countries and Obama simply continued those mistakes. The ROE in the last 6 years has been disastrous. I guess its better that we just 'quit' but its not going to make anything better (except maybe making fewer of our troops in theater and vulnerable).

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    Re: NATO flag lowered in Afghanistan as combat mission ends

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    I understand. I appreciate the passion. I think people need to be clear. The war against Afghanistan ended in 2001. The war against Iraq ended May of 2003. Since those dates we have established relationships with both governments and their military. Clearly we arent 'at war' with either country. Now...if we are in 'post war ops' ala Germany and Japan post WW2, then all of this should be expected and we should still be working with newly formed allies (even if that means doing it differently).

    Theres a whole lot of people that think this is all still The War against Afghanistan. When Obama declares it is over, many of his supporters will say he 'ended' the war with Afghanistan. We need to be quite clear about what is 'ending'. What is ending is sustained combat ops against an enemy that while ousted and hiding in caves, still represents a threat.

    Personally...I think Bush made a mistake in post war ops in both countries and Obama simply continued those mistakes. The ROE in the last 6 years has been disastrous. I guess its better that we just 'quit' but its not going to make anything better (except maybe making fewer of our troops in theater and vulnerable).
    I 100 percent agreee with every word you've just spoken.

    Well said.

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    Re: NATO flag lowered in Afghanistan as combat mission ends

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Still havent seen anyone say what this amounts to. Did we 'win'? Are we 'surrendering'?
    It used to be called 'surrendering', or a 'retreat', or even a 'defeat', but now it is called 'a withdrawal of troops and ending the war'. The 'withdrawal of troops' is the honest part but it takes at least two sides to end a war.

    Always on the cutting edge for defining new meanings for outdated words and phrases, President Barrack H. Obama said, ""But this is how wars end in the 21st century: not through signing ceremonies but through decisive blows against our adversaries, transitions to elected governments, security forces who are trained to take the lead and ultimately full responsibility".

    I think we can all sleep a little more peacefully at night knowing that BHO is working on these 'transitions' and giving them his full attention.

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    Re: NATO flag lowered in Afghanistan as combat mission ends

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    It used to be called 'surrendering', or a 'retreat', or even a 'defeat', but now it is called 'a withdrawal of troops and ending the war'. The 'withdrawal of troops' is the honest part but it takes at least two sides to end a war.

    Always on the cutting edge for defining new meanings for outdated words and phrases, President Barrack H. Obama said, ""But this is how wars end in the 21st century: not through signing ceremonies but through decisive blows against our adversaries, transitions to elected governments, security forces who are trained to take the lead and ultimately full responsibility".

    I think we can all sleep a little more peacefully at night knowing that BHO is working on these 'transitions' and giving them his full attention.
    Yes....Obama's extensive military background offers him the opportunity to make these kinds of speeches.

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    Re: NATO flag lowered in Afghanistan as combat mission ends

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    It used to be called 'surrendering', or a 'retreat', or even a 'defeat', but now it is called 'a withdrawal of troops and ending the war'. The 'withdrawal of troops' is the honest part but it takes at least two sides to end a war.

    Always on the cutting edge for defining new meanings for outdated words and phrases, President Barrack H. Obama said, ""But this is how wars end in the 21st century: not through signing ceremonies but through decisive blows against our adversaries, transitions to elected governments, security forces who are trained to take the lead and ultimately full responsibility".

    I think we can all sleep a little more peacefully at night knowing that BHO is working on these 'transitions' and giving them his full attention.
    I sense a note of sarcasm in your tone. But I may be wrong.

    Theres probably a reason why so many military people and their family members are so repulsed by their current CiC.
    http://www.click2houston.com/news/Fa...etter/16904582

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    Re: NATO flag lowered in Afghanistan as combat mission ends

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    I sense a note of sarcasm in your tone. But I may be wrong.
    Damn! I didn't lay it on thick enough!

    Theres probably a reason why so many military people and their family members are so repulsed by their current CiC.
    Father of fallen Marine upset by president's letter | News - Home
    The survivors of the loved ones killed in battle in Iraq have to be asking themselves why they died. Why were so many lives lost or destroyed, quite apart from the money spent, when a retreat was being engineered by a neophyte C in C? It seems many people don't realize at the moment that they are living through one of the most historical times in American history, certainly since the Civil War, but those who survive the next decade or two will get it..

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    Re: NATO flag lowered in Afghanistan as combat mission ends

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Damn! I didn't lay it on thick enough!

    The survivors of the loved ones killed in battle in Iraq have to be asking themselves why they died. Why were so many lives lost or destroyed, quite apart from the money spent, when a retreat was being engineered by a neophyte C in C? It seems many people don't realize at the moment that they are living through one of the most historical times in American history, certainly since the Civil War, but those who survive the next decade or two will get it..
    I work with a fair number of Soldiers and we usually can resolve the question "what was I fighting for". Lets be honest...MOST (not all-but MOST) soldiers want to go to war. Dont get me wrong...that doesnt mean they like it or that they want to be at war, but that IS why we exist. Soldiers in Afghanistan today dont resent having to be there. They are there for the guy standing next to them. They are their for their unit. Sure...some will even attach the whole God and Country thing, but what it comes down to is the guy standing next to you. Its not a question of fighting or even of some people dying. The biggest anger and frustration is knowing you are there and stand a better chance of being a target than a war fighter.

    If we are going to be there...be there. Aggressively pursue and eliminate the enemy, even if that means going into the mountains of Pakistan to do it. If we arent going to fight, we shouldnt be there.

    If those goes in the books as a loss, it will do so as an administrative loss. Both recent Commander in Chiefs bear responsibility for that.

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    Re: NATO flag lowered in Afghanistan as combat mission ends

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    I work with a fair number of Soldiers and we usually can resolve the question "what was I fighting for". Lets be honest...MOST (not all-but MOST) soldiers want to go to war. Dont get me wrong...that doesnt mean they like it or that they want to be at war, but that IS why we exist. Soldiers in Afghanistan today dont resent having to be there. They are there for the guy standing next to them. They are their for their unit. Sure...some will even attach the whole God and Country thing, but what it comes down to is the guy standing next to you. Its not a question of fighting or even of some people dying. The biggest anger and frustration is knowing you are there and stand a better chance of being a target than a war fighter.

    If we are going to be there...be there. Aggressively pursue and eliminate the enemy, even if that means going into the mountains of Pakistan to do it. If we arent going to fight, we shouldnt be there.

    If those goes in the books as a loss, it will do so as an administrative loss. Both recent Commander in Chiefs bear responsibility for that.
    I agree with what you say about the soldiers, certainly, and I once wore a uniform myself. We were also a solid group.

    But it is those left behind who suffer, the children without fathers, those who lost their sons and daughters. They'll understand the camaraderie and unity of those in battle but not the reason why these soldiers died.

    If the US is to eventually retreat whenever it involves themselves in a war can the military continue to maintain its morale? Who would really want to die for Barrack Obama and whatever it he stands for? Does anyone really know what it even is?

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    Re: NATO flag lowered in Afghanistan as combat mission ends

    Quote Originally Posted by 11Bravo View Post
    Sorry, I always get a little heated when I see that question.

    -I would say that we are ending our combat mission. It's now a tactical training operation rather than a war. It's time for the Afghans to fight their own extremism. However, I really don't see this working.
    Same thing as in Iraq. Billions spent on train/ arming- quipping. Then the Iraqi PM Maliki, ruined the Military through blatant corruption and sidelining Sunnis., a nice term for how he treated them.
    I wonder if Afghanistan will be a repeat of Iraq.
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    Re: NATO flag lowered in Afghanistan as combat mission ends

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    I agree with what you say about the soldiers, certainly, and I once wore a uniform myself. We were also a solid group.

    But it is those left behind who suffer, the children without fathers, those who lost their sons and daughters. They'll understand the camaraderie and unity of those in battle but not the reason why these soldiers died.

    If the US is to eventually retreat whenever it involves themselves in a war can the military continue to maintain its morale? Who would really want to die for Barrack Obama and whatever it he stands for? Does anyone really know what it even is?
    I dont think anyone dies 'for' the CiC, whoever that may be. When you decide to join, you just do the job. I get that is hard on families, but is it any more so than on the families of a thrill seeker doing something they love to do or anyone that was just doing something 'stupid'?

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