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Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun..... [W:22]

Unitedwestand13 said:
Statistics does not erase the pain felt by those who knew the victims.

Stupidity on the part of the victim is not a just reason that we should excuse the actions of those who killed them.

It is also very offensive to the people who still value their memories of the dead
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'Feeling the pain' or being 'offended' is not worthy of debate among adults.
 
VanceMack said:
I allow sadness for the families of the fallen. Stupidity often brings dire results to ones self and causes loved ones pain. Advocate for if not an end, at least a reduction in stupid behaviors and you are less likely to have to grieve for the family members of stupid people.

Just tryin to help.
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Stupidity exists on both sides.
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
Statistics does not erase the pain felt by those who knew the victims.

Stupidity on the part of the victim is not a just reason that we should excuse the actions of those who killed them.

It is also very offensive to the people who still value their memories of the dead
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... So, we shouldn't excuse the actions of the police for hurting stupid people who are fighting with police because someone else will feel bad?
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
Should we let the police be held unaccountable when they show improper judgement.
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Should I answer your question when you didn't answer mine?

Edit: I'm assuming your sentence was a question since it is phrased as one, though it's lacking the question mark.
 
VanceMack said:
Same goes for thugs of all race, gender, or religious denomination. I dont care. I just dont. Mike Brown is dead because he was stupid. I know we disagree, but Eric Garner is dead because he was stupid. Tamir Rice is dead because he was stupid. John Crawford is dead because he was stupid.

Levar Jones was shot because the cop was stupid. That should carry a civil consequence at least and quite possibly a criminal charge.
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(Quote snipped as to not take up the whole page)

I have to start with this because I would like clarification... Tamir Rice was a kid with an airsoft gun. What did he do that was stupid? It's not uncommon for kids to have toy guns and to play "cops and robbers". It is uncommon for them to be shot by police after 2 seconds of arriving on scene. And you're definitely going to have to tell me what John Crawford did that was stupid by walking around with a toy gun in an open carry state!

I think, Vance, that people are just reacting to what they see. Blacks are seeing larger proportional arrests and deaths than whites, and saying "wtf are we getting arrested and shot so much"? It's easy to pin that as racist cops, but I don't think the numbers say that. I think you can draw only 2 conclusions from the numbers:

1) Either black people commit crimes at far higher rates than all other races
2) There is some level of institutional racism that causes more black people to be arrested

I tend to lean towards number 2. Either way, it's still an issue that should not be ignored and should be investigated. Quite frankly, I think the actions of both sides, per usual, have been childish and ****ing stupid. Why would anyone take the side that is looting seriously? And how can anyone clear the police officers when everyone is just calling blacks thugs and blaming them? Why can't there just be an honest discussion like we're having now?

Let's us, as a nation, have an adult discussion about what's going here. Why are blacks being arrested at a higher rate in almost every area of the country for almost every crime? Why is it happening and how can we, as a nation, curb that statistic (by lowering their crime rate or balancing the arrest rate)?

------------------
Side note: It may not get as much attention, but I think people are fully aware of and concerned about black-on-black crime. Kanye West and Jay-Z even have a song about it. However, I think a lot could be gained from understanding both statistics, what is causing them, and the parallels between them.

That's why I think, despite the riots, despite the anger, and despite all of the negativity, I want this discussion to continue.
 
Grant said:
If that's how you interpreted a single sentence then any further response is futile
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I can only respond to what you type in your messages, and I can not tell what you tried to imply in your previous statement.

My apologies if the abcense of a question mark made my statement unclear, I made my previous statement with the intent of questioning.
 
CycloneWanderer said:
Should I answer your question when you didn't answer mine?

Edit: I'm assuming your sentence was a question since it is phrased as one, though it's lacking the question mark.
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I seem to be vulnerable to making that error while typing on a mobile phone.

I expect police to control the situation when a group of people start to riot. However I have the expectation that police should not use force when it is not required.
 
whysoserious said:
(Quote snipped as to not take up the whole page)

I have to start with this because I would like clarification... Tamir Rice was a kid with an airsoft gun. What did he do that was stupid? It's not uncommon for kids to have toy guns and to play "cops and robbers". It is uncommon for them to be shot by police after 2 seconds of arriving on scene. And you're definitely going to have to tell me what John Crawford did that was stupid by walking around with a toy gun in an open carry state!

I think, Vance, that people are just reacting to what they see. Blacks are seeing larger proportional arrests and deaths than whites, and saying "wtf are we getting arrested and shot so much"? It's easy to pin that as racist cops, but I don't think the numbers say that. I think you can draw only 2 conclusions from the numbers:

1) Either black people commit crimes at far higher rates than all other races
2) There is some level of institutional racism that causes more black people to be arrested

I tend to lean towards number 2. Either way, it's still an issue that should not be ignored and should be investigated. Quite frankly, I think the actions of both sides, per usual, have been childish and ****ing stupid. Why would anyone take the side that is looting seriously? And how can anyone clear the police officers when everyone is just calling blacks thugs and blaming them? Why can't there just be an honest discussion like we're having now?

Let's us, as a nation, have an adult discussion about what's going here. Why are blacks being arrested at a higher rate in almost every area of the country for almost every crime? Why is it happening and how can we, as a nation, curb that statistic (by lowering their crime rate or balancing the arrest rate)?

------------------
Side note: It may not get as much attention, but I think people are fully aware of and concerned about black-on-black crime. Kanye West and Jay-Z even have a song about it. However, I think a lot could be gained from understanding both statistics, what is causing them, and the parallels between them.

That's why I think, despite the riots, despite the anger, and despite all of the negativity, I want this discussion to continue.
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Tamir Rice spent the hours before the confrontation with the cops intentionally threatening complete strangers in the park. There are numerous pictures of this. His stupid behaviors caused a citizen to call 911 and report it. When the police arrived, he went towards the cops and pulled his shirt up, reaching for the weapon.
brandishing-gun.jpg
635526068060400342-Tamir-Rice-with-gun.jpgcleveland-police-shoot-boy.jpg
 
Jerry said:
There wasn't enough evidence to go to trial.
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I think people find it a little fishy that when cops are involved, there's virtually never enough evidence to go to trial.
 
VanceMack said:
Tamir Rice spent the hours before the confrontation with the cops intentionally threatening complete strangers in the park. There are numerous pictures of this. His stupid behaviors caused a citizen to call 911 and report it. When the police arrived, he went towards the cops and pulled his shirt up, reaching for the weapon.
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I've not really seen enough info on this. I've heard that narrative, but but "threatening" do you mean he was actually threatening them, or just being a dumb kid and pretending he had a real gun and pointing it at people? The latter is something I could see almost any 12-year old doing. It's going to be very hard to convince me that there was a justification to shoot a 12-year old who had a BB gun without proper warning.

And John Crawford? How was he an idiot? It's an open carry state. Why were the cops even called?
 
1) Either black people commit crimes at far higher rates than all other races
2) There is some level of institutional racism that causes more black people to be arrested

it is fairly easy to google FBI statistics

FBI — Table 43

now it is fairly simple to see that as a % of the population, blacks are arrested (hence commit) more crimes than other races

there may be hundreds of reasons WHY this is a fact.....BUT IT IS A FACT

14% of the population i believe.......yet committing a very large % of the crimes

is it no wonder that they have more confrontations with law enforcement?
 
whysoserious said:
I think, Vance, that people are just reacting to what they see. Blacks are seeing larger proportional arrests and deaths than whites, and saying "wtf are we getting arrested and shot so much"? It's easy to pin that as racist cops, but I don't think the numbers say that. I think you can draw only 2 conclusions from the numbers:

1) Either black people commit crimes at far higher rates than all other races
2) There is some level of institutional racism that causes more black people to be arrested

I tend to lean towards number 2. Either way, it's still an issue that should not be ignored and should be investigated. Quite frankly, I think the actions of both sides, per usual, have been childish and ****ing stupid. Why would anyone take the side that is looting seriously? And how can anyone clear the police officers when everyone is just calling blacks thugs and blaming them? Why can't there just be an honest discussion like we're having now?

Let's us, as a nation, have an adult discussion about what's going here. Why are blacks being arrested at a higher rate in almost every area of the country for almost every crime? Why is it happening and how can we, as a nation, curb that statistic (by lowering their crime rate or balancing the arrest rate)?
Click to expand...
Why do blacks have the highest unemployment rates? Why do they have the highest dropout rates? Why do they have the highest teen pregnancy rates? Why do they have the highest incarceration rates? Why do they kill more people by percentage than every other racial group? Why do they lead every misery index category in the nation including in states with extraordinarily low percentage of total population like Alaska?

Those are all really good questions and have nothing to do with 'black people are violent'. There IS a social construct in place that contributes to ALL of that. The solution is to be willing to go there...to identify the problems and stand against the problems. The solution is NOT to make excuses or to rationalize, or to justify. Thats why the dialogue is simply so screwed up. Stupid white guy causes cops to shoot him...hmmm...thats a shame. Stupid black guy causes cops to shoot him...burn this bitch down.

If the concern is that so many are incarcerated...then for crying out loud...promote the message to young black people to STOP COMMITTING ****ING CRIMES. Need help with the education? Yes...absolutely. Need real jobs people can actually aspire to? You bet. Promote the hell out of that message and bring in investors. But STOP COMMITTING ****ING CRIMES. Black on black crime devastates the black community. Theres no excuse for it. Theres no rationalization for it. If its still happening, we dont have ENOUGH black people in prison...not too many.

I dont want JAY Z and Kanye to sing about it. I dont want a random protest about black on black violence once every 6 years to show how much they care. I want to see engagement by politicians, by wealthy contributors, by community leaders. I want to see investment...not just lip service. Until that happens...nothing will change. Until that happens, there will be more instances of violence and there will be more instances of police shootings.

Fix the problems with the community. If we have problems with law enforcement...we can work on that too. But fix the problems with the community and see if we still have the problems with law enforcement. I'm betting we wont, and if we do, those problems will mirror the problems every other race faces.
 
gdgyva said:
now it is fairly simple to see that as a % of the population, blacks are arrested (hence commit) more crimes than other races
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I hope you don't think that's an actual logical conclusion. That postulation only works if 100% of people who commit crimes are arrested.

I think, if you were to disproportionately interrogate one race over all others, that race would always have a higher arrest rate. For example: if you stop and frisk 50% more black people than you do white people, you are probably going to double the rate of drug charges for black people.

Agreed?
 
whysoserious said:
I've not really seen enough info on this. I've heard that narrative, but but "threatening" do you mean he was actually threatening them, or just being a dumb kid and pretending he had a real gun and pointing it at people? The latter is something I could see almost any 12-year old doing. It's going to be very hard to convince me that there was a justification to shoot a 12-year old who had a BB gun without proper warning.

And John Crawford? How was he an idiot? It's an open carry state. Why were the cops even called?
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Cops cant make that discernment from a 911 call. What the cops heard was "There is a man in the park pointing a gun at people. It is probably fake...who knows...but still..." When they arrived on the scene they expected to find a man with a gun. They found a man, reaching under his shirt and pulling out a gun. They realized later it was a kid, not a man, and it was an airsoft gun and not the .45 it was meant to be taken as.

BTW...the kids grandmother said he bought the gun specifically to intimidate people because he was being bullied at school. His intent was pretty well known. And yes...he was a 12 year old with an adolescent brain. That still = stupid.
 
whysoserious said:
I hope you don't think that's an actual logical conclusion. That postulation only works if 100% of people who commit crimes are arrested.

I think, if you were to disproportionately interrogate one race over all others, that race would always have a higher arrest rate. For example: if you stop and frisk 50% more black people than you do white people, you are probably going to double the rate of drug charges for black people.

Agreed?
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look at the damn table

whites get arrested for domestic abuse, drunk driving, embezzlement, etc

blacks lead in % for murders, robberies, violent crimes

Violent crime 391,467 228,782 151,627

Robbery 78,538 32,945 44,271

Murder and nonnegligent manslaughter 8,383 3,799 4,379

these arent stop and frisk statistics

these are violent crimes.....being committed by black people way more proportionally than whites

want to try again?
 
VanceMack said:
Fix the problems with the community. If we have problems with law enforcement...we can work on that too. But fix the problems with the community and see if we still have the problems with law enforcement. I'm betting we wont, and if we do, those problems will mirror the problems every other race faces.
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(Snipped quote to save space)

I agree with that, though I don't think there is a question that we have a problem with law enforcement.

Regarding the community - I think that's a big key to fixing this country. It's a huge elephant in the room that no one talks about, because if you talk about it one way you're racist, and if you talk about it the other way you're a race baiter. It's a problem that I would leave to sociologists for the most part, because they have the ability to see the bigger picture and the historical knowledge to understand it. However, I think it has to address a few issues:

1) The continued segregation
2) Continued racial tensions
3) Unequal education opportunities
4) Residual effects of Jim Crow

It's crazy for me to realize I was born 2 decades after it was illegal for blacks and whites to share a water fountain in my town. And I think it's even crazier to think that just because that generation is aging now, we should have all moved on. Clearly people haven't moved on, and unless we have these types of conversations, racism will have just moved from out in the public to in back rooms, and problems with violence will continue to be blamed on "black thugs" or "corrupt cops".
 
whysoserious said:
And John Crawford? How was he an idiot? It's an open carry state. Why were the cops even called?
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John Crawford. Police recieved a 911 call about a man in Walmart carrying a gun, ;pointing at people, even women and children, and waving it around. They didnt go to WalMart and find the cute pics of John Crawford we had posted afterward carrying a bb gun in a box...they found a man carrying a weapon, no box in sight. You dont think that is stupid?

The dialogue was that a white guy can carry a gun and not be harrassed and a black guy is shot. The difference is not in the skin color but in how they are carrying the weapon. If a white guy is carrying the gun, real or not, and pointing it at people in a threatening manner...that is stupid and he will most likely be shot.

Cops dont see this cute guy holding his mama...
images (7).jpg
they see a guy carrying this pointing it at people.images (8).jpg
 
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