Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun..... [W:22]

People are jumping to conclusions (as usual). Some say the police officer was harassing a convenience store customer because he was shopping while black. Others say with certainty that the teen pointed a gun at the officer.

We have a video (shot from a great distance and inconclusive in my opinion). I'll put sound to it; any of these three versions are perfectly possible and as of now we have no idea which one is true.

Version 1: Teen comes out of the store talking to his friend: "I heard a voice telling me that cops are actually infiltrated aliens and they are out to kill all human beings. It is my duty to shoot them at first sight." Friend: "Man, I told you not to stop your antipsychotic medication. You need to go back to see your psychiatrist; you will get in trouble!" Cop comes out of his car and says "Good evening, nice young gentlemen. I saw you coming out of that store, and I'd like to ask you; do they sell donuts there?" Teen: "Get away, alien from outer space; you don't fool me; I'll kill you!" [Pulls gun, aims it at officer, gets shot, dies].

Version 2: Teen comes out of the store talking to his friend: "You know, I hate the police in this area. They seem to be racially profiling people like us." Cop comes out of his car and says "Good evening, gentlemen. We received a report of some trouble in this area and I'm patrolling. I'd like you to please tell me your intentions and whereabouts." Teen: "You motherf...r pig, I bet you're about to shoot me like you did to the guy in Ferguson just because I'm black; only, you are gay and a coward so I dare you to do it to me; I know a pig and chicken like you doesn't have it in your guts, I dare you to do it." Teen points his arm to cop (no gun) and taunts cop aggressively. Cop loses control, gets angry, shoots teen.

Version 3: Teen comes out of the store talking to his friend: "The weather is a bit cold tonight." Cop comes out of the car and says "That psychiatric medication I was taking is sh!t, I'm glad I tossed it in the garbage because now the voices in my head are telling me the truth that the two of you are infiltrated aliens I need to kill. Where are you going?" Teen says "Whoa, officer, calm down, I was just going to my cousin's home out there" (raises arm, no gun, points to the street where his cousin lives). Cop says "no, you are an outer space alien. There, I'll show you" (pulls gun, kills teen).

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OK, I'm exaggerating a bit the psychotic guy who quit his psychiatric medication and is seeing space aliens around which is not very likely, just for the sake of the argument, but what I'm saying is that anything could have happened, from the cop talking calmly to the teen and getting threatened with a gun for no reason, to an incident fueled by the race tensions in that area getting out of hand again, from the cop being deranged and acting with completely unjustified force.

At this time we have no idea about what happened except that the police sustain that the teen pointed a gun at the cop, which may or may not be true (see post #66).

All other assumptions are premature until more facts are known.

X Factor said:

There was nothing "routine" about my contact with the officer and he was definitely probing for potential criminal activity. Apparently the right call then would be to not answer his questions. Silly me, I actually wanted him to know that I wasn't a burglar and oddly, he didn't try to insist that I was one once I could answer his questions (and he finally allowed me to grab my ID). Clearly I was lucky to be dealing the last cop on earth that didn't just throw me on the ground and shoot me

That's funny, the right to a jury trial is also in the Constitution but people still seem to only support that right as long as the jury comes back with a decision they agree with.

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It's your discretion, X Factor. You felt comfortable that it would work out. That's fine. No one is saying you can't answer questions, just that it's not a good blanket statement that you should always answer questions.

Also, cmon with that grand jury statement. That's a straw man and you know it.

Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

ThePlayDrive said:

If asking an officer "why am I being arrested" or "should I get a lawyer" escalates a situation, then the police have a problem and need to be re-trained. Thank you for unwittingly highlighting the problem of excessive force and please stay in Canada.

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If there were more irrational people, people spoiling for a fight, in America as your post seems to condone, I'd likely stay in Canada. I know, however, that the vast majority of people in America, at least the ones I've encountered, no matter their race or ethnicity, have been good, honest, open and welcoming people and a pleasure to be around. I will say, anecdotally, that several black Americans have complimented me at times on my manners and politeness when in conversation with them - this includes a host of service industry staff.

Perhaps it's not this Canadian who's the problem but the giant chips on some people's shoulders.

Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

whysoserious said:

Look, it's your discretion. But if you ever aren't sure, there is no harm in remaining silent and asking for a lawyer. In the case you mentioned, I would probably explain myself; but I don't have to and it should work out the same - just with a lot more hoops.

The one thing you don't want to do is resist lawful question and arrests or pull a ****ing gun.

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Why? Who cares if the question is lawful? Why does that matter? Because they will arrest you if you don't play along? Is that it?

Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

clownboy said:

The only reason you support the protesters is that you didn't take the time to read on the incident. The convenience store footage has been released and the guy did indeed pull a gun. It was an unregistered gun with the numbers filed off. This thug has a long record with the police.

The protesters should be kicked in the nuts repeatedly to ensure that this sort of stupidity isn't passed down to future generations.

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I have to admit, your last line made me laugh - thanks!

Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

Henrin said:

Why? Who cares if the question is lawful? Why does that matter? Because they will arrest you if you don't play along? Is that it?

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If you are being detained lawfully, I don't think you should try to fight physically with people.

Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

whysoserious said:

If you are being detained lawfully, I don't think you should try to fight physically with people.

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They will fight me if I don't play along, so...

Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

whysoserious said:

Why would I resist arrest? If I was arrested for no reason and treated unjustly I would sue their ****ing balls off, though.

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Because jail is a terrible place you don't want to be.

Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

Henrin said:

They will fight me if I don't play along, so...

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Follow due process. Those are the rules we agreed to in the society (that you don't believe in) we live in.

Henrin said:

Because jail is a terrible place you don't want to be.

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Agreed. I still wouldn't resist arrest personally - even if I felt it wasn't justified. I feel like that's where due process comes in and civil courts handle these types of situations best.

Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

whysoserious said:

Follow due process. Those are the rules we agreed to in the society (that you don't believe in) we live in.

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Oh great, the we agreed to something argument. :roll:

whysoserious said:

It's your discretion, X Factor. You felt comfortable that it would work out. That's fine. No one is saying you can't answer questions, just that it's not a good blanket statement that you should always answer questions.

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Ok, that I'd agree with.

Also, cmon with that grand jury statement. That's a straw man and you know it.

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No, no. I didn't mean that about americanwoman and I mentioned a trial jury for a reason (as opposed to a grand jury). It was something that struck me after the Zimmerman trial, like some people didn't think all the constitutional protections about presumption of innocence or the burden of proof being on the state should have applied in that case.

Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

Henrin said:

Oh great, the we agreed to something argument. :roll:

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If you want to be so free, you're free to move somewhere else that doesn't have these laws. Or you're free to vote for anarchists that will never be elected ever.

I don't care.

Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

whysoserious said:

Agreed. I still wouldn't resist arrest personally - even if I felt it wasn't justified. I feel like that's where due process comes in and civil courts handle these types of situations best.

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That will help you in jail, I'm sure. Just allow people to throw you in a dangerous place and deal with them later. Great idea.

Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

whysoserious said:

Why would I resist arrest? If I was arrested for no reason and treated unjustly I would sue their ****ing balls off, though.

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And you might lose your ass, too, along with being charged with obstruction. Good luck with your attitude...you'll need it.

X Factor said:

No, no. I didn't mean that about americanwoman and I mentioned a trial jury for a reason (as opposed to a grand jury). It was something that struck me after the Zimmerman trial, like some people didn't think all the constitutional protections about presumption of innocence or the burden of proof being on the state should have applied in that case.

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Wow I'm dyslexic or something. I read that as grand jury trial, not jury trial.

Though if you ask me, the problem in the Zimmerman trial wasn't the jury, it was the overzealous prosecutor who went for charges he could never get.

Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

americanwoman said:

I guess everyone missed the "depending on what the officer is trying to talk to you about" part. :roll: Obviously if it's just some kind of routine thing, you answer the questions as best you can but if there is some sort of crime committed and for any reason you are considered suspect, the best advice is to keep your mouth shut. Cue - "But I would never ever commit a crime or be questioned for such a crime either and if I was I have nothing to hide" responses. The right to remain silent is one of the best legal rights we have that's why it was put in our constitution. I'm surprised, or maybe not, most people take such a thing for granted.

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While I respect your perspective here, I believe you're 100% wrong in your approach. The advice given by "whysoserious" was to never, ever, answer questions from a police officer. Always refuse to answer and ask for a lawyer. And that advice, in my humble view, is utterly asinine, even if your little brother is a lawyer with a lot of free time.

Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

apdst said:

And you might lose your ass, too, along with being charged with obstruction. Good luck with your attitude...you'll need it.

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What? He just said he wouldn't resist arrest and play along like a nice little boy.

Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

Henrin said:

That will help you in jail, I'm sure. Just allow people to throw you in a dangerous place and deal with them later. Great idea.

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I haven't been to jail very often, but I don't think it's as dangerous as you are making it out to be. Prison is dangerous - jail is a temporary holding place. I don't think many people die or get harmed in jail.

I wouldn't want to be there, but I don't think it's quite the hell you are making it out to be.

Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

apdst said:

And you might lose your ass, too, along with being charged with obstruction. Good luck with your attitude...you'll need it.

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Why would I get charged with obstruction?

Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

whysoserious said:

I haven't been to jail very often, but I don't think it's as dangerous as you are making it out to be. Prison is dangerous - jail is a temporary holding place. I don't think many people die or get harmed in jail.

I wouldn't want to be there, but I don't think it's quite the hell you are making it out to be.

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I imagine it would depend upon timing and location. When folks who haven't been to jail think about it, it's Rikers Island they see on TV that comes to mind.

Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

CanadaJohn said:

While I respect your perspective here, I believe you're 100% wrong in your approach. The advice given by "whysoserious" was to never, ever, answer questions from a police officer. Always refuse to answer and ask for a lawyer. And that advice, in my humble view, is utterly asinine, even if your little brother is a lawyer with a lot of free time.

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I never said that. I said that the advice to "just answer police questions" was bad advice, because you should use your own discretion on when to answer and when to use your state-given right to remain silent.

Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

whysoserious said:

If you want to be so free, you're free to move somewhere else that doesn't have these laws. Or you're free to vote for anarchists that will never be elected ever.

I don't care.

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Just answer these questions.

Do you like the prospect of dealing with the police?
Do you like the fact they can rob you of your life?
Do you like the fact they threaten people with prison?
Do you like the fact that the government basically considers a great deal of your human rights null and void in prison?

If the answer to all of those question is no then frankly I don't understand you.

Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

whysoserious said:

How is asking for a lawyer and being silent, both ****ing rights in this country, being disrespectful?

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Context is everything - you were adamant, 100%, never say a word, just ask for a lawyer.

That's great advice in this case because the guy was carrying a gun, registration unknown, concealed probably without a permit, and thus a criminal as he stood there living and breathing. Who knows - perhaps if he'd simply answered the officer's questions, he could be on DP today bitching about police brutality instead of getting prettified for the funeral.

Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

whysoserious said:

I haven't been to jail very often, but I don't think it's as dangerous as you are making it out to be. Prison is dangerous - jail is a temporary holding place. I don't think many people die or get harmed in jail.

I wouldn't want to be there, but I don't think it's quite the hell you are making it out to be.

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People get physically harmed in jail all the time.

Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

Henrin said:

Just answer these questions.

Do you like the prospect of dealing with the police?
Do you like the fact they can rob you of your life?
Do you like the fact they threaten people with prison?
Do you like the fact that the government basically considers a great deal of your human rights null and void in prison?

If the answer to all of those question is no then frankly I don't understand you.

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1) Generally no.
2) No
3) No
4) No

Henrin said:

People get physically harmed in jail all the time.

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Perhaps. I'd rather take my chances in jail than fighting a guy with numerous weapons on him and back up around the corner.