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Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun..... [W:22]

Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

I guess it's never okay to ever shoot a black man.
Did you miss the part of my post where I said : "If the police are telling the truth, then it was permissible to shoot him."? I literally said, in the post, you quoted, that shooting him would have been fine if he pulled a gun.
 
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Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

Translation: Nobody

Translation: insanity.

Look, dude... no one is investigating my actions. No one probably ever will. But every police action is investigated internally, judicially and by the public.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

Now you've done it. Zyphlin will be here shortly to let you know how wrong your take on that post is. :D

Why would I do that? Unlike you, shrub nose wasn't foolish enough to claim a demonstrably false statement.

Shrub Nose didn't suggest it wouldn't shed more light on the situation, he simply dismissed that whether or not shedding more light on it would actually stop this kind of thing from happening.

YOU on the other hand stated that "no, it won't" shed more light on situations like this.

Shrub Nose didn't say anything ridiculously stupid and factually inaccurate. He simply gave his opinion on why he felt the shedding of more light wouldn't matter.

You however did say something stupid and factually inaccurate, by claiming it wouldn't shed more light on the situation.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

Do you support protesting anything that involves police use of deadly force or only if the "victim" is black?
I support protests against the excessive use of force against anyone. Don't you?
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

I'm sorry, but telling someone they should just answer police questions is not good advice. In fact, it's probably the worst advice you could give.

That doesn't mean you should be uncooperative, either.

I know, I have seen the stupid video. You do it your way, I'll do it my way, and this idiot will do it his way. In the end, the people that stay alive and out of jail will be the winners. Having had maybe 50 interactions with on duty law enforcement over 40 years I really am not scared of being railroaded or falsely imprisoned by some crazy cop. Most of them appreciate honesty and the ability to do what they need to do and get on with their day.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

I guess white guys who are quarterbacks, even bad ones, are okay.

There were a lot of police rolling around.
And that's hard to understand since black people never resist arrest or assault police officers.



Until you post some evidence to support this I'm going to believe that your post is BS. :roll:
 
One thing that would help, I think, is that police leaders re-train officers to have body cameras and dashboard cameras on at all times, and that this footage be immediately and transparently available in any doubtful case. Trust and accountability must be restored from all sides, otherwise we are all as a society headed into a lot of trouble (which has started already, like the crazy guy who shot and killed two officers in New York City).

Me, while I wouldn't endorse for a second any case of unjustified police brutality, I'd also want my home and family and city to be protected by police.

This may sound like a good idea and all, and I'm sure you're extremely noble regarding this kind of thing, but I think it's not nearly as simple as you suggest. The reality is there's likely to be a number of such instances where it's not clearly black and white. Even where it is black and white, undoubtably there are still going to be people who complain and simply use it to their advantage.

For example, there are those who are screaming that a cop should NEVER shoot an unarmed person. If a body camera shows a suspect attempting to get the officers gun and physically threatening the officer, it's going to lead some to suggest it was justified (there's reason to say the officer felt that his life was being threatened) while others will scream "See! He was UNARMED!"

Being a sports fan and seeing the vast amount of monday morning quarterbacking...judging situations not based on the context of when and how they were actually happening, but rather judging them with full knowledge of how the situation played out...I just don't trust that somehow we'd see any more true "justice" done by making these kind of things immedietely available for public consumption in an unfiltered sort of way. To me that doesn't create any net fix of issues, it simply fixes some while creating a slew of others.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

Because rain is about the weather.

into the spiked eggnog early I see.

Have a Merry one.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

Did you miss the part of my post where I said : "If the police are telling the truth, then it was permissible to shoot him."? I literally said, in the post, you quoted, that shooting him would have been fine if he pulled a gun.

Yeah, so?
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

I know, I have seen the stupid video. You do it your way, I'll do it my way, and this idiot will do it his way. In the end, the people that stay alive and out of jail will be the winners. Having had maybe 50 interactions with on duty law enforcement over 40 years I really am not scared of being railroaded or falsely imprisoned by some crazy cop. Most of them appreciate honesty and the ability to do what they need to do and get on with their day.

What stupid video? All of them? You gave a blanket statement about how to interact with police, and you gave a markedly wrong statement. Telling people to "just answer the police's questions" is one of the worst bits of advice I've ever heard. Shut up, cooperate, and get a lawyer. That's the right advice. If you follow that advice you:

1) Should not be hurt
2) Should get the best possible defense against whatever charge may be levied

Do you really have an issue with that?
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

I claimed that it wouldn't make any difference to the haters. Here's the post;

yes, there's the post, in response to a persons claim that it will shed more light on the situation.

And your very first response to his statement (which had nothing to do with "haters") was your claim that...

X Factor said:
No it won't.

Which is simply false. A video from the officers POV, in better quality than the horrible gas statoin camera, would ABSOLUTELY shed more light on what occured during this situation.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

I'm sorry, but telling someone they should just answer police questions is not good advice. In fact, it's probably the worst advice you could give.

That doesn't mean you should be uncooperative, either.
Clamming up is also considered obstruction. So if you even just look like someone they are looking for and get all uppity, expect to be treated as such.
If you refuse to defer to the authority vested in the officer by the state you live in. I don't care how much of a beat down you receive.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

The one showing a guy being harrassed by a police officer because he was shopping while black.

Yeah, there's no video definitively showing that what so ever. At least in the video you can clearly say there's evidence of the individual pointing something at the officer. There's absolutely NOTHING IN THE VIDEO providing a shred of evidence that anything was occuring because he was "shopping while black". But nice job attempting to present your baseless complete congesture as some kind of fact.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

Yeah, so?
You passive-aggressively accused me of arguing that it's never okay to shoot a Black person in response to post when I literally said that it was okay to shoot a Black person.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

Apparently not. What I've been seeing in other boards is this:

1. There is footage of the incident with the security camera being far away. In the upper left side of the image we see the incident going on and the teen clearly raises his arm and points it forward - some people say a gun is visible; others don't see anything other than the raised arm. Personally I think the image is too far away to see clearly whether or not he has a gun in his hand.

2. Police report is that a gun was found in the scene, with the serial number scratched out.

3. Some people say that someone took a picture of the scene and in this picture there is no gun. Then an official picture *taken two hours later* at the same angle and covering the same spot shows a gun.

4. Some people say that there is another security camera much closer to the incident (and apparently there are pictures taken of that camera to show its proximity to the scene) but its footage has not been released.

5. The police has stated that the cop had a body camera but it was not on, and that his patrol car had a dashboard camera but "it is thought that it wasn't on either."

6. It seems like the teen had had previous incidents of armed offenses in his background.

7. Apparently the only gun that fired shots was the officer's.

--------

These are the statements and/or facts I believe are out there right now - I don't endorse any of them, I don't know if they are true or not, and I don't know if there are other statements, facts, pictures, or footage that contradict or confirm the above.

--------

Now, let's think about these items.

Obviously we have two possibilites.

A. Footage in item 1 is the closest one available; police is not trying to prevent the public from seeing better footage. The teen did indeed point a gun at the police officer. The gun found in the scene is indeed the teen's gun. Maybe it was temporarily removed for expert examination and investigation then put back which would explain its absence in a picture taken two hours earlier and its presence in the later picture (I don't know if this is done - I mean, taking evidence for examination and putting it back for pictures), or else the first alleged picture taken by a citizen is a fake or photoshopped to erase the gun from it. The body camera and the dashboard camera were indeed turned off just by accident, like police statement said, because officers are still not used to this technology and make these mistakes. The teen having used guns illegally before, would lend credence to the idea that he indeed had a gun and the gun found in the scene was his, and he pointed it at the officer.

IF HYPOTHESIS A IS FACTUAL, *OF COURSE* THE OFFICER WAS RIGHT IN DEFENDING HIS OWN LIFE AND TAKING DOWN THE TEEN.

B. The teen was pointing his arm forward for some reason and had no gun (this could be as simple as the officer asking "where are you going" and the teen pointing to some street and saying "I was planning to go there" or any other thousand possibilities. There is better footage from a closer camera and it shows no gun in the teen's hand and this is why it's not being shown. There is footage from the officer's body cam and/or dashboard cam and it shows no gun and it's been erased and a false statement was made that the cameras were not on during the incident. The citizen's picture is accurate and there was no gun by the body. The police then later planted a gun there. The idea that a gun is in the scene, is taken out for expert examination then put back for pictures is not standard procedure as more likely the picture would be taken first, then the gun would be removed. It might be hard to believe that the teen had his arm fully extended and pointing a gun at the officer, and the officer then had time to draw his own gun and fire several shots while the teen didn't fire a single shot.

IF HYPOTHESIS B IS FACTUAL, THEN WE ARE FACING AN EPISODE OF UNJUSTIFIED USE OF LETHAL FORCE BY POLICE.


Either way, it is too early to rush to judgment. Does anybody have information, pictures, or footage that might endorse or support hypothesis A or hypothesis B?


Thanks. I hadn't read a summary like this anywhere. Still many open questions.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

What stupid video? All of them? You gave a blanket statement about how to interact with police, and you gave a markedly wrong statement. Telling people to "just answer the police's questions" is one of the worst bits of advice I've ever heard. Shut up, cooperate, and get a lawyer. That's the right advice. If you follow that advice you:

1) Should not be hurt
2) Should get the best possible defense against whatever charge may be levied

Do you really have an issue with that?

You seem to be freaking out over it, I have no issue with it at all. Cooperate to me is "just answering his questions". If your a paranoid nut case that thinks cops are trying to find a reason to arrest you then yes just shut up and lawyer up. Just remember that to do that means you will probably be taken in until they can figure out why you need a lawyer.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

It is if a moderator feels you are derailing the thread, and making it about gun control rather than the incident itself...But, take it from me, you really don't want to discuss this sort of thing in the thread..



That is totally made up...Please provide proof that this was the case.



So you think he wasn't on patrol? Was he out stalking black men to kill?



The reason to initiate an encounter with the two could be a number of things...Could be that they were loitering, and he was going to tell them to move along...But, at the point the man pulled a gun on the cop that was over.



You can't have a pleasant conversation with someone who just pointed a gun at you. :roll:
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

Is it less sane than firing smoke grenades into a crowd of protestors because it surely calms them down?

The protestors shouldn't be their.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

1. The police said he pulled a gun. If they police are telling the truth, then it was permissible to shoot him. I'm not inclined to just accept what the police say just because they said it.

This is what CNN is currently reporting:

But Berkeley's mayor, who is black, said Wednesday that this shooting cannot be compared to officer-involved deaths in nearby Ferguson and on Staten Island, New York -- incidents that spurred widespread protests after grand juries decided not to charge the officers.

"(It) does not appear .... that the police officer initiated" Tuesday's shooting, Mayor Theodore Hoskins told reporters Wednesday, citing, in part, the surveillance video that he says appears to show the teen aiming a gun at the officer.


Officer fatally shoots armed teen in town near Ferguson - CNN.com
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

Yes we do, we even have video.

And the anti-police yahoos are still going to claim the cops did something wrong.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

Why are you making this about race?

So if a police officer approaches anyone its harassment?

Did that cop ever approach white men in the parking lot of that establishment while on routine patrol?

if so, it's not about race.
 
True, and true. The main issue in this case, though, is whether or not the teen pointed a gun at the cop. I don't think this point has been clearly established yet, given some strange circumstances I detailed earlier. If the the teen did point a gun at the officer, case closed. If he didn't, then all hell breaks loose, as we'd be facing a major cover-up happening in the middle of an already explosive situation.

One thing that would help, I think, is that police leaders re-train officers to have body cameras and dashboard cameras on at all times, and that this footage be immediately and transparently available in any doubtful case. Trust and accountability must be restored from all sides, otherwise we are all as a society headed into a lot of trouble (which has started already, like the crazy guy who shot and killed two officers in New York City).

Me, while I wouldn't endorse for a second any case of unjustified police brutality, I'd also want my home and family and city to be protected by police.

The police serve society in a very essential job (and a difficult, honorable, and dangerous and even heroic one); on the other hand, we do need our police officers to be highly trained, responsible (as in, using the right level of force required by the circumstances), and accountable if they stray (with non-malicious human error being taken into account as attenuating circumstance, but malicious and deliberate misuse of force or cover-ups being severely punished). We need our citizens to be equally law-abiding, respectful of officers when the police are doing their job appropriately, and accountable for things like violent protests and looting. We need our criminals to be caught, prosecuted, and killed when justified (as in self-defense when they are trying to kill an officer). In summary, we need a state of law where all parties behave within it.
Unfortunately as a society we seem to be currently far from the ideal I've just stated.



I'm going to disagree and say that compared to a lot of other countries on this planet the USA has a lot of excellent cops who do a tough job well.

No human being is perfect and some people make mistakes. :roll:
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

This is what CNN is currently reporting:

But Berkeley's mayor, who is black, said Wednesday that this shooting cannot be compared to officer-involved deaths in nearby Ferguson and on Staten Island, New York -- incidents that spurred widespread protests after grand juries decided not to charge the officers.

"(It) does not appear .... that the police officer initiated" Tuesday's shooting, Mayor Theodore Hoskins told reporters Wednesday, citing, in part, the surveillance video that he says appears to show the teen aiming a gun at the officer.


Officer fatally shoots armed teen in town near Ferguson - CNN.com
Thanks for the info. And, again, the if the police's side of the story turns out to be true and the video shows what they say it shows, then shooting the guy was permissible. I'll continue to take it with a grain of salt for now.
 
Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

That's horrible advice. Depending on what the officer is trying to talk to you about, I would greatly advise against that.

Instead, ask if you are being arrested or if you should get a lawyer.

At which point he can place you under arrest and hold you for 24 hours.

Is your next piece of advice to resist arrest?
 
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