Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun..... [W:22]

MMC said:

Well that's a point CJ was making.....as BO, Holder, Sharptones, and Jesse Jackson ALL know that this issue of cops shooting blacks is not what is causing most young black men to be killed. Its crime, and those neighborhoods own residents usually validate it.

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Straw man. No one said anything remotely close to the argument you are "refuting".

Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

VanceMack said:

I am fine with protesting specific incidents of police brutality. I am fine with promotion of dialogue between communities. However...the second the dialogue goes to 'the cops (or as we see regularly 'the pigs') and people bashing and expressing hatred towards all cops or 'the cops' in general, the argument on brutality is lost.

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Agree entirely with you. This is one of those type of things I say routinely, not even related to this topic. It's evidence on this forum.

When you use rhetoric or arguments that are ridiculous/hyperbolic/outright false in nature it immedietely damages your credability and the credability of the argument you're trying to make. Even if that argument was ultimately a solid and legitimate one, your attempt to actually win people over to your argument or have it taken seriously is amazingly damaged when you are building said argument on a foundation of problematic statements.

My only point was that I see a very stark difference between pointing out instances of police "brutality" when they happen (or even trying to point out instances where it may be the case for closer look)...and pointing out instances of "brutality" by people of a particular race or religion.

In the first case, you're pointing out civil servents...people employed on the tax payer dime, that are there to do a job because we as citizens have tacitly agreed to the social contract that makes their job even exist, and who are part of the governmental structure that is supposed to be serving us. In the second case you're pointing out private citizens.

My point is simply that I see more legitimacy in protesting, or continually "pointing out", the former more so than the later.

At no point am I suggesting nor implying that the WAY some people protest or point out those things are right, nor that the notion of over exaggeration or outright lying regarding those protests is okay.

Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

mike2810 said:

Under your description. So under your story, why do you believe the victim "allegedly" pulled a gun on the officer? Makes you think what the outcome could have been if said "guy" states , "good evening officer, what can I do for you. I don't want you to be alarmed but I have a concealed weapon on me. I do have a permit".

Do you have evidence that the patrol was not "routine"? Do you have evidence the store does like the police checking on his business?

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Do you have any evidence that the store has asked the police to come confront its customers? Do you have any evidence that the police confront it customers who do not fit a certain profile? Do you have any evidence that the Ferguson "routine patrol" involves stopping whites who are shopping, are on private property? Do you have any authority to suggest that people's rights only exist the police say they have some right?

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Doesn't anybody have anything to say about post #66? I was hoping for more updated information that would support hypothesis A or B. I was hoping that here on DP people would have some sort of better info; in the Ukraine crisis threads often people from that area had compelling info/videos/pictures showing stuff that the regular media had yet not reported. This thread is discussing the general issues - race, police brutality, guns, etc. - but I haven't seen posts that have info or evidence that sheds more light on what happened.

Should I try to post another thread to ask these questions? I thought this thread was the right place to raise these points but apparently nobody is interested in debating the basic facts in this incident but are rather going into other more general directions.

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Ruchen said:

It's getting harder and harder to feel sorry for these goons.

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Therein lies the problem. The poster child for police violence against black people most definitely is not Michael Brown.

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X Factor said:

To those intent on hating on cops, nothing vindicating cops will make a difference

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Still desperately trying to move that goal post I see.

Whether or not people are intent on hating cops, and whether or not the more light that is "shed" from body cameras will help "vindicate" the tops to these people, has nothing to do with the statement in the post you quoted that started this line of conversation.

Whether or not people will still complain about the cops or say this cop was wrong, even if there was a body camera video, is entirely irrelevant to whether or not a body camera would shed more light on this situation.

A poster claimed a body camera would shed more light on this situation.

You claimed that it wouldn't.

You then tried to defend your ridiculous claim by talking about something that in no way, shape, or form defends it. (that people would still complain)

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I want to make it clear that if the guy pulled a gun on the police officer, there are very few people in this country that would say it wasn't justifiable to shoot him.

Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

Lovebug said:

Kudos to this headline :Officer in Missouri shot, killed man who pulled gun It is all we need to know until all the facts are in. Stop making it into another black vs white nonsense. Stop vilifying.
Just stop it. This holier than thou attitude is almost too much to take. We aren't cops being called into these situations.

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well said

way too much hate and discontent with our police forces around the nation today

i almost wish they would all go on a sickout for three to four days

i can see the people now.....afraid to leave their own damn houses

NO ONE is saying the police are perfect.....or that there arent a few bad apples

but this has gotten ridiculous.....

some of those protesting ought to pick up a badge......and see how easy they think the job is

Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

GreatNews2night said:

Doesn't anybody have anything to say about post #66?

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That it seemed to have the majority of the information I've seen so far (and some I haven't, regarding the gun pictures), and all in all it was a pretty decent write up.

I just don't think there's a lot of new "news" coming out on this isuse yet.

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Ruchen said:

It's getting harder and harder to feel sorry for these goons.

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What goons? Please describe. You're talking John Crawford or Levar Jones?

Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

GreatNews2night said:

Doesn't anybody have anything to say about post #66? I was hoping for more updated information that would support hypothesis A or B. I was hoping that here on DP people would have some sort of better info; in the Ukraine crisis threads often people from that area had compelling info/videos/pictures showing stuff that the regular media had yet not reported. This thread is discussing the general issues - race, police brutality, guns, etc. - but I haven't seen posts that have info or evidence that sheds more light on what happened.

Should I try to post another thread to ask these questions? I thought this thread was the right place to raise these points but apparently nobody is interested in debating the basic facts in this incident but are rather going into other more general directions.

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Discussing guns in a thread about two guns is apparently a no no and there is video of the incident on the internet if you wish to seek it out. I have seen it linked on other sites.

Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

Declan said:

Discussing guns in a thread about two guns is apparently a no no

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Moderator's Warning:

I would suggest you knock this kind of commenting out before further action is taken

Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

GreatNews2night said:

Doesn't anybody have anything to say about post #66? I was hoping for more updated information that would support hypothesis A or B. I was hoping that here on DP people would have some sort of better info; in the Ukraine crisis threads often people from that area had compelling info/videos/pictures showing stuff that the regular media had yet not reported. This thread is discussing the general issues - race, police brutality, guns, etc. - but I haven't seen posts that have info or evidence that sheds more light on what happened.

Should I try to post another thread to ask these questions? I thought this thread was the right place to raise these points but apparently nobody is interested in debating the basic facts in this incident but are rather going into other more general directions.

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I thought you brought up some good questions. I was hoping someone would be able to provide more updated information too but I can't seem to find any yet. Just the one video with the grainy footage is all I could find. If you find something else to further support either hypothesis I would appreciate you posting it here.

Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

Declan said:

Apparently talking about guns in a thread about a shooting is off topic,...

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It is if a moderator feels you are derailing the thread, and making it about gun control rather than the incident itself...But, take it from me, you really don't want to discuss this sort of thing in the thread..

...so a guy comes out of an open store with a grocery bag in his hand, talks to another guy a minute, and then starts walking across the parking lot of an open business with evidence of having just been a patron at that open business...

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That is totally made up...Please provide proof that this was the case.

...an officer on an alleged routine patrol...

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So you think he wasn't on patrol? Was he out stalking black men to kill?

found what reason to find that suspicious enough to enter onto the private property and initiate an encounter with his business' customers?

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The reason to initiate an encounter with the two could be a number of things...Could be that they were loitering, and he was going to tell them to move along...But, at the point the man pulled a gun on the cop that was over.

Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

Declan said:

there is video of the incident on the internet if you wish to seek it out. I have seen it linked on other sites.

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I've seen the video. It is taken from a distance and in my opinion it is not conclusive.

MMC said:

Another shooting of a young black man in Missouri, that had pulled a gun on the Officer. Couple miles away from Ferguson. The Officer did what he had to.....and deadly force was used. Immediately a band of protestors gather on the scene. Right away taunting the police and blaming them for killing another black man. It didn't matter the young black man pulled a gun.

What say ye?

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BERKELEY, Missouri (AP) — A suburban St. Louis police officer shot and killed a man who pointed a gun at him at a gas station late Tuesday, police said.

A crowd of about 100 people were gathered early Wednesday at the scene in Berkeley, Missouri, a few miles from Ferguson, where a white police officer fatally shot black 18-year-old Michael Brown in August. The protesters gathered early Wednesday milled around the gas pumps at the station, some taunting and yelling at police officers.

Some had strands of yellow police-line tape draped around their neck, with others using it as a headband. Authorities from multiple agencies, some in riot gear, stood among the protesters.....snip~

Police: Officer in Missouri shot, killed man who pulled gun

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Anyone who points a gun at anyone, including cops, should expect to be shot. :roll:

The 2nd Amendment doesn't give anyone the right to point guns at people.

whysoserious said:

Straw man. No one said anything remotely close to the argument you are "refuting".

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Reading is Fun and Mental! You should give it a try sometime. Just sayin!

CanadaJohn said:

From my perspective, this is part of the real problem when it comes to credibility and moving forward. The fact that the black community and black leadership around the US and into the highest reaches of government such as the Mayor of NYC, the US Attorney General, and even the President of the United States, would use Michael Brown, Eric Garner, and now this miscreant as symbols to fight for just makes common sense people roll their eyes and discount any true, serious, complaints black communities may have about police brutality.

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Next time.....look for a better, opening. It might at least show you did some reading. Despite any comprehension. :roll:

shrubnose said:

Anyone who points a gun at anyone, including cops, should expect to be shot. :roll:

The 2nd Amendment doesn't give anyone the right to point guns at people.

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You got that Right SN. :2wave:

Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

RDS said:

Get the body camera implemented. That will shed more light.

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Will it stop people from pointing guns at cops? :roll:

That appears to be what caused this.

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Declan said:

Do you have any evidence that the store has asked the police to come confront its customers? Do you have any evidence that the police confront it customers who do not fit a certain profile? Do you have any evidence that the Ferguson "routine patrol" involves stopping whites who are shopping, are on private property? Do you have any authority to suggest that people's rights only exist the police say they have some right?

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Answering questions with questions.

Unlike you, I will wait for the investigation to be completed. Unlike you, I don't automatically accept law enforcement is bad.

Have you asked the police to patrol your area you live in or do that as a routine?

So your making this about race?

" Do you have any authority to suggest that people's rights only exist the police say they have some right?" What?

Does this forum come under free speech?

(see, I can play answer a question with questions game also.):mrgreen:

No I do not have the info about patrols. You in your statement questioned if it was routine. Its your claim to support not mine.

Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

shrubnose said:

Will it stop people from pointing guns at cops? :roll:

That appears to be what caused this.

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Now you've done it. Zyphlin will be here shortly to let you know how wrong your take on that post is.

Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

mike2810 said:

Answering questions with questions.

Unlike you, I will wait for the investigation to be completed. Unlike you, I don't automatically accept law enforcement is bad.

Have you asked the police to patrol your area you live in or do that as a routine?

So your making this about race?

" Do you have any authority to suggest that people's rights only exist the police say they have some right?" What?

Does this forum come under free speech?

(see, I can play answer a question with questions game also.):mrgreen:

No I do not have the info about patrols. You in your statement questioned if it was routine. Its your claim to support not mine.

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Apparently unlike you I watch the video.

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Declan said:

Misleading headline. They left and the "and" to make it appear as if a a police officer had been shot.

Guns should be banned for use by the general public.

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Once that happens, we can start to demilitarize the police.

Even black cops feel like they are racially profiled when off duty (Off duty, black cops in New York feel threat from fellow police )

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Not going to happen. : :roll:

Did you ever hear of the 2nd Amendment to the U.S. Constitution? That won't be going away anytime soon.

shrubnose said:

Anyone who points a gun at anyone, including cops, should expect to be shot. :roll:

The 2nd Amendment doesn't give anyone the right to point guns at people.

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True, and true. The main issue in this case, though, is whether or not the teen pointed a gun at the cop. I don't think this point has been clearly established yet, given some strange circumstances I detailed earlier. If the the teen did point a gun at the officer, case closed. If he didn't, then all hell breaks loose, as we'd be facing a major cover-up happening in the middle of an already explosive situation.

One thing that would help, I think, is that police leaders re-train officers to have body cameras and dashboard cameras on at all times, and that this footage be immediately and transparently available in any doubtful case. Trust and accountability must be restored from all sides, otherwise we are all as a society headed into a lot of trouble (which has started already, like the crazy guy who shot and killed two officers in New York City).

Me, while I wouldn't endorse for a second any case of unjustified police brutality, I'd also want my home and family and city to be protected by police.

The police serve society in a very essential job (and a difficult, honorable, and dangerous and even heroic one); on the other hand, we do need our police officers to be highly trained, responsible (as in, using the right level of force required by the circumstances), and accountable if they stray (with non-malicious human error being taken into account as attenuating circumstance, but malicious and deliberate misuse of force or cover-ups being severely punished). We need our citizens to be equally law-abiding, respectful of officers when the police are doing their job appropriately, and accountable for things like violent protests and looting. We need our criminals to be caught, prosecuted, and killed when justified (as in self-defense when they are trying to kill an officer). In summary, we need a state of law where all parties behave within it.

Unfortunately as a society we seem to be currently far from the ideal I've just stated.

Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

shrubnose said:

Not going to happen. : :roll:

Did you ever hear of the 2nd Amendment to the U.S. Constitution? That won't be going away anytime soon.

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The local governments are imploding.