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Thread: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun..... [W:22]

  1. #351
    Educator GreatNews2night's Avatar
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    Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    You have to dismiss a lot of decent evidence out of hand to arrive at the conclusion that they are. You have to slather everything in a lot of completely baseless "what if's" and inventing all kinds of stories from thin air to arrive at the conclusion that they are.

    That's not balanced. That's pro-poster bias -- just not quite as extreme as maybe some other people.
    Look, what a reputable agency like Reuters is saying is that the video evidence is inconclusive. See for yourself (I did the bold highlighting):

    Police released an indistinct, distant surveillance video from the gas station, edited to end just before the shooting.

    In the corner of the frame, one of the people at the station can be seen raising one or both arms in what might be a shooter's stance near the police car, although the footage is too dark and grainy to establish that the person is holding a gun.

    Two other videos released later by St. Louis County Police were similarly ambiguous, recorded by security cameras that appear to have only restricted views of the scene.
    Protests flare after Missouri police killing of armed black man

    So, no, I don't see where you see the "a lot of decent evidence." Where is this decent evidence?

    Now, in my posts I said I was not *endorsing* any of the possibilities. I didn't even say which one I find *more likely.* While I have no proof yet and reserve judgment like I said, if I were really pressed into choosing a *more likely* possibility, I'd be a bit more inclined to say that the cop reacting to a gun being pointed at him is more likely, although I'm still troubled by the following thought: we see in the video the teen raising his arm. He clearly has it pointed forward, so if he has a loaded gun in his hand, and if *then* the cop reacts, draws his own gun, points at him and fires three times, one wonders why in the hell the teen didn't fire a single shot in the meantime. You know, if this is not what happened and the gun was not planted, the suspect might have fired too. This would make powder residue, the bullet fired would have been recovered in the scene, it would make scratches or a bullet hole wherever it had ended, etc. - so, it would remove all doubt of a cover-up/planted gun. The fact that someone pointed a loaded gun at someone else who has still to draw his own gun is shot three times and doesn't shoot back not even once seems strange to me. That's why I think I'm falling for the police version being *more likely* only slightly. But I do find it more likely; the fact that I'm explaining a lot more the opposing possibility has only to do with the fact that the scenario A is straightforward and doesn't need much defense/explanation: thug points gun at cop, gets shot, case closed. The contrary hypothesis, though, invites one to try to find explanations for that raised arm, alternatives to the teen having a gun or not, etc.

    Now, I've already agreed with you that extremists on both sides won't just accept the truth even if it is proven beyond any reasonable doubt to any decent person. The truth has never stopped conspiracy theorists, for example, and won't stop people with laden agendas trying to use whatever happens to further their political and societal objectives. The truth, though, would matter to decent and reasonable citizens (I do rank myself among those).

    I do disagree that my position is not sane just because I exposed some scenarios (even when I made them extreme and far-fetched, as a hyperbole to make a point - I did say in that very post that I was pushing it to the limit, just to make a point).
    Last edited by GreatNews2night; 12-25-14 at 01:20 PM.

  2. #352
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    Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Bingo.

    Until there's some reason to question the police statement that the guy pulled a gun on the cop, there's no reason to assume otherwise.


    White people do this "unnecessary shooting" narrative thing too, when their interests are engaged. Case in point...

    I married into a family of criminals. Well, my wife's immediate family were straight, but almost all of her uncles, cousins and etc were career criminals, some of them very serious felons with ties to what passes for organized crime locally. You can imagine how awkward family get-togethers were.

    One of her uncles had been killed by the police a decade before, and they still carried the torch of him being a martyr who was needlessly murdered. As the story goes, he was drunk and disorderly and pulled a knife on the cops, who shot him from twenty feet away when he "charged". The family says he would never have actually stabbed anyone, why did they have to shoot him six times it was just a small pocket knife, he was drunk and they should have taken that into account, etc etc.... then they tried to bring ME into it and ask ME if I would have shot him!

    I said "Whoa, hey.... I wasn't there, I don't know what happened exactly, so I can't really say what should or should not have happened." That answer didn't satisfy them much, but it was a much better answer than the raw truth... which would have been "if he'd charged me with a knife as the cops said he did, I'd have lit him up too."
    Sure. I think the police were justified in shooting your in-law, although they could have achieved the same result with a taser, I guess. But I wouldn't second-guess the reasoning of the officer on the field; these situations escalate fast, and I'd support any law enforcement officer who gets charged with a weapon to protect himself/herself/the public by using lethal force. Someone needs to be a total moron, drunk or not, to threaten a police officer with a weapon, and expect to be handed a rose instead of a bullet.

    What I'm saying is that we haven't seen any irrefutable proof about what happened in that gas station; just grainy, distant video, and a gun with filed off serial number which might be planted evidence. I know it's a "what if" but what if what the teen had in his extended arm was a cell phone, saying to the officer "here, call my parents, they'll confirm who I am"? And the cop panicked, thought it was a gun, and fired three times, then panicked again given the current climate and planted a gun in the scene? Impossible? Clearly not. Would I blame the officer in this case? Probably not for the first part of my sentence; I'd assume human error induced by the current climate (remember, two officers were shot and killed in NYC in connection with these protests) but of course I'd blame him for planting evidence.

    What do I think is more likely? Like I said, it's more likely in my opinion that the teen was a thug with a handgun and was stupid enough to point it at the officer (maybe he was high, and he does have a background involving armed offenses). Has it been proven yet? Not in my opinion, no. I'm ready to change my opinion immediately when/if more solid evidence is presented.

  3. #353
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    Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatNews2night View Post
    Look, what a reputable agency like Reuters is saying is that the video evidence is inconclusive. See for yourself (I did the bold highlighting):



    Protests flare after Missouri police killing of armed black man

    So, no, I don't see where you see the "a lot of decent evidence." Where is this decent evidence?

    Now, in my posts I said I was not *endorsing* any of the possibilities. I didn't even say which one I find *more likely.* While I have no proof yet and reserve judgment like I said, if I were really pressed into choosing a *more likely* possibility, I'd be a bit more inclined to say that the cop reacting to a gun being pointed at him is more likely, although I'm still troubled by the following thought: we see in the video the teen raising his arm. He clearly has it pointed forward, so if he has a loaded gun in his hand, and if *then* the cop reacts, draws his own gun, points at him and fires three times, one wonders why in the hell the teen didn't fire a single shot in the meantime. You know, if this is not what happened and the gun was not planted, the suspect might have fired too. This would make powder residue, the bullet fired would have been recovered in the scene, it would make scratches or a bullet hole wherever it had ended, etc. - so, it would remove all doubt of a cover-up/planted gun. The fact that someone pointed a loaded gun at someone else who has still to draw his own gun is shot three times and doesn't shoot back not even once seems strange to me. That's why I think I'm falling for the police version being *more likely* only slightly. But I do find it more likely; the fact that I'm explaining a lot more the opposing possibility has only to do with the fact that the scenario A is straightforward and doesn't need much defense/explanation: thug points gun at cop, gets shot, case closed. The contrary hypothesis, though, invites one to try to find explanations for that raised arm, alternatives to the teen having a gun or not, etc.

    Now, I've already agreed with you that extremists on both sides won't just accept the truth even if it is proven beyond any reasonable doubt to any decent person. The truth has never stopped conspiracy theorists, for example, and won't stop people with laden agendas trying to use whatever happens to further their political and societal objectives. The truth, though, would matter to decent and reasonable citizens (I do rank myself among those).

    I do disagree that my position is not sane just because I exposed some scenarios (even when I made them extreme and far-fetched, as a hyperbole to make a point - I did say in that very post that I was pushing it to the limit, just to make a point).
    That's why I said "decent," not definitive. And of course the media says that. It's not absolutely definitive, which leaves room for them to create controversy. But even they aren't trying to claim there's any other likely possibility, because there isn't.

    For all of the evidence currently provided, the most obvious and likely explaination is that he pulled a gun. We don't have the clarity we wish we did, but absolutely none of it is at all likely to be something else, as opposed to someone pulling a gun.

    Every other scenario that would totally discredit this being at least an understandable shoot requires so much story-telling that it borders on conspiracy theory.

    There is no other possibility that does not require a conspiracy. And there is absolutely no evidence for any of those, which makes them pure fantasy.

    In my estimation, with the decent evidence we currently have and the lack of other viable or supported possibilities, I think the current possibilities are between whether this was a textbook shoot, or an understandable but unfortunate shoot.

    The evidence we do have simple doesn't point any other way. And while it is not as clear and definite as I'd like, it also doesn't leave very much room for alternatives unless there is something conspiratorial going on. There just isn't.
    Last edited by SmokeAndMirrors; 12-25-14 at 01:34 PM.

  4. #354
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    Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

    Quote Originally Posted by countryboy View Post
    Not gonna happen, this will be another "hands up, don't shoot" rallying cry from the cop haters. I do hope they eventually release the entire video. The account I heard said the cop was so startled that he fell back and drew and fired on the way down. That's some good shootin'.

    Doot doot doot...another one bites the dust.
    I posted a link earlier that shows the entire video.

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    Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    I posted a link earlier that shows the entire video.
    The one I saw stopped at the same point as the other. Maybe they changed it at your link.

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    Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

    Quote Originally Posted by countryboy View Post
    The one I saw stopped at the same point as the other. Maybe they changed it at your link.
    There are three videos on that linked site. You clearly see the man raising his arm with something in it and pointing it at the cop. As soon as that happens you see his buddy hauling ass and the cop responding shooting while retreating, and stumbling.

  7. #357
    Educator GreatNews2night's Avatar
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    Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post

    The evidence we do have simple doesn't point any other way. And while it is not as clear and definite as I'd like, it also doesn't leave very much room for alternatives unless there is something conspiratorial going on. There just isn't.
    If there is an alternative explanation (big if, like you said) it would be a cover-up, not a conspiracy. A conspiracy is something different, like some of the favorite conspiracies out there that hundreds of people would be involved in something like manipulating the government, making up false-flag operations on 9/11, faking a mass shooting in a school with the victims being actors in order to foster gun control laws, etc., etc. For this to be an alternative to "thug pulls gun at officer, gets shot, dies, case closed" there is no need for a conspiracy; merely a cover-up with planted evidence, and this *is* something that has happened in this country, unlike the far-fetched conspiracy theories out there. Hell, even when someone *is* likely guilty, there's been evidence planted, like in the OJ Simpson case in which, in my opinion, the police tried to frame a *guilty* man. So, if the police are willing to frame and plant evidence when a likely guilty man is involved, it's not hard to believe that if they get involved in a "oops" situation especially in this charged and tense climate, and end up killing a teen with cell phone thinking it was a gun, they might say, "hey, let's put a gun in the scene."

    So, all that I'm saying is that I don't *necessarily* take what the police are saying as the unquestionable truth, without seeing some hard-rock evidence.

    Now, I agree that the more likely explanation is that this teen with armed offenses in his background was high or something, and was stupid enough to pull a gun at an officer who then, better trained, was faster and thankfully killed the thug, and deserves praise for the good riddance.

    It's still unproven, though, and a gun in the scene with no serial number and as far as I know, with no evidence released yet that it was the teen's gun, and a grainy, distant video, while in my opinion while they suggest the likelihood of the police version with that raised arm, they do not prove it, especially in light of a couple of troubling thoughts (why hasn't the teen fired; why allegedly there is a picture of the scene without the gun and then a later picture shows the gun?).

    I'd be more likely to promptly accept the police version with *overwhelming likelihood* in a number of circumstances: better video showing a gun, toxicology report showing that the teen was high (therefore with diminished judgment in being willing to point a loaded gun at an officer), no discrepancy in pictures of the scene with no in/out of this gun; the gun having been traced back to the teen, etc., etc..

    I wish this case was clear cut like you're seeing... but it just isn't, at least not yet.
    Last edited by GreatNews2night; 12-25-14 at 02:15 PM.

  8. #358
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    Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    There are three videos on that linked site. You clearly see the man raising his arm with something in it and pointing it at the cop. As soon as that happens you see his buddy hauling ass and the cop responding shooting while retreating, and stumbling.
    Oh, okay thanks. I clicked on the first video I saw and it froze when the guy pointed at the cop. To be fair, the resolution isn't clear enough to make out the gun, but making gestures like that at a cop isn't too smart even if no gun is present. I believe there was a gun.

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    Educator GreatNews2night's Avatar
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    Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    There are three videos on that linked site. You clearly see the man raising his arm with something in it and pointing it at the cop. As soon as that happens you see his buddy hauling ass and the cop responding shooting while retreating, and stumbling.
    What if the "something" is a cell phone and he is saying "here, call my parents, they'll confirm who I am" after the cop questioned him for an alleged robbery in the area, and the cop over-reacted to the cell phone thinking it was a gun?

    You clearly see the man raising his arm: true
    He had a gun: unclear at this point. I'm more than ready to accept it, if it becomes clear.

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    Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    That's why I said "decent," not definitive. And of course the media says that. It's not absolutely definitive, which leaves room for them to create controversy. But even they aren't trying to claim there's any other likely possibility, because there isn't.

    For all of the evidence currently provided, the most obvious and likely explaination is that he pulled a gun. We don't have the clarity we wish we did, but absolutely none of it is at all likely to be something else, as opposed to someone pulling a gun.

    Every other scenario that would totally discredit this being at least an understandable shoot requires so much story-telling that it borders on conspiracy theory.

    There is no other possibility that does not require a conspiracy. And there is absolutely no evidence for any of those, which makes them pure fantasy.

    In my estimation, with the decent evidence we currently have and the lack of other viable or supported possibilities, I think the current possibilities are between whether this was a textbook shoot, or an understandable but unfortunate shoot.

    The evidence we do have simple doesn't point any other way. And while it is not as clear and definite as I'd like, it also doesn't leave very much room for alternatives unless there is something conspiratorial going on. There just isn't.


    Granted, it isn't impossible that it could have been some kind of cover-up.


    It just doesn't seem very likely, and there is no evidence of it at this time.

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