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Thread: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun..... [W:22]

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    Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

    Quote Originally Posted by webrockk View Post
    Shoplifting? Is that worth a gun fight with the PoPo?
    Again, it depends on the punishment. If they plan to lock me way for years it just might be. Think about it like this. If I live in a state where the punishment for my crime is life in prison what exactly do I have to lose by shooting it out with the cops? If anything I save myself years of torment by dying right then and there.

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    Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    I was unclear. I was saying that after the protesters arrived, the police made a statement about the guy pulling a gun.


    All you did was quote the police statement again. Like I said, if the police are telling the truth, then it was permissible to shoot them, but I'm not inclined to just accept what they way. Reporting their account of events as fact is silly to me.
    What evidence do you have that they are lying?

    To automatically distrust an account is paranoia and I doubt that is helpful here and now.

    Perhaps people need to stay calm and quit automatically accusing everyone else.

    No ****ing wonder the streets are burning. Nobody trusts anyone anymore.

    What a ****ed up way to live.
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  3. #253
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    Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Agree entirely with you. This is one of those type of things I say routinely, not even related to this topic. It's evidence on this forum.

    When you use rhetoric or arguments that are ridiculous/hyperbolic/outright false in nature it immedietely damages your credability and the credability of the argument you're trying to make. Even if that argument was ultimately a solid and legitimate one, your attempt to actually win people over to your argument or have it taken seriously is amazingly damaged when you are building said argument on a foundation of problematic statements.

    My only point was that I see a very stark difference between pointing out instances of police "brutality" when they happen (or even trying to point out instances where it may be the case for closer look)...and pointing out instances of "brutality" by people of a particular race or religion.

    In the first case, you're pointing out civil servents...people employed on the tax payer dime, that are there to do a job because we as citizens have tacitly agreed to the social contract that makes their job even exist, and who are part of the governmental structure that is supposed to be serving us. In the second case you're pointing out private citizens.

    My point is simply that I see more legitimacy in protesting, or continually "pointing out", the former more so than the later.

    At no point am I suggesting nor implying that the WAY some people protest or point out those things are right, nor that the notion of over exaggeration or outright lying regarding those protests is okay.
    Bigotry is applied to races and groups. There are literally millions of cops. I would dare say most cops are opposed to brutality. Bias and bigotry towards any group is inappropriate. And lets be honest...of all the examples getting national attention right now, are these really cases people want to pin their hats on? Garner was not beaten. He was taken down in a move some describe as a chokehold but his own actions prove he was capable of breathing. He didnt die of brutality...he died of a lifetime of cheeseburgers and no exercise. And dood was a 31 time loser to boot. Brown...he went from being a cute baby faced gentle victim to being a violent thug that only moments before the encounter with the cop had robbed a store and thrown the clerk around like a rag doll. There is at least evidence and several witnesses stating Brown was the aggressor. This most recent case involves a man reported to have had pulled a gun on a cop.

    None of this is to suggest that there are NOT real live actual cases involving police brutality that should be identified and addressed.

  4. #254
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    Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Bigotry is applied to races and groups. There are literally millions of cops. I would dare say most cops are opposed to brutality. Bias and bigotry towards any group is inappropriate. And lets be honest...of all the examples getting national attention right now, are these really cases people want to pin their hats on? Garner was not beaten. He was taken down in a move some describe as a chokehold but his own actions prove he was capable of breathing. He didnt die of brutality...he died of a lifetime of cheeseburgers and no exercise. And dood was a 31 time loser to boot. Brown...he went from being a cute baby faced gentle victim to being a violent thug that only moments before the encounter with the cop had robbed a store and thrown the clerk around like a rag doll. There is at least evidence and several witnesses stating Brown was the aggressor. This most recent case involves a man reported to have had pulled a gun on a cop.

    None of this is to suggest that there are NOT real live actual cases involving police brutality that should be identified and addressed.
    I disagree with your comments about Garner (the Medical Examiner DID rule it a homicide, remember) and Brown (there's a great deal of evidence showing that the cop overreacted and could have done his job without it leading to a confrontation in the first place), but your final sentence is 100% true - even if the cops were not culpable in the deaths of Garner and Brown, there's more than a few real live actual cases which should (but rarely are) addressed.
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    Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    I disagree with your comments about Garner (the Medical Examiner DID rule it a homicide, remember) and Brown (there's a great deal of evidence showing that the cop overreacted and could have done his job without it leading to a confrontation in the first place), but your final sentence is 100% true - even if the cops were not culpable in the deaths of Garner and Brown, there's more than a few real live actual cases which should (but rarely are) addressed.
    Every death involving a second individual is a 'homicide'. A homicide ruling by a coroner is not a criminal judgement, nor does it imply guilt, fault, blame. They have 5 categories to choose from. The coroners ruling of homicide means less than nothing. If you and I are wrestling and you have a massive heart attack and die because you are morbidly obese and shouldnt have been wrestling in the first place it is still ruled a homicide. As for Brown...do you acknowledge the forensic evidence and witness accounts offer that Brown was ore at least could have been the aggressor? If so...you are back to a real poor case to take a stand on.

    So lets work on actual cases and punish people actually guilty rather than condemning an entire profession because of the perceived acts of a minority.

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    Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

    Quote Originally Posted by whysoserious View Post
    Agreed.
    Sure. Be all reasoned and rational and intelligent. Way to throw THAT in my face...


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    Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    I disagree with your comments about Garner (the Medical Examiner DID rule it a homicide, remember) and Brown (there's a great deal of evidence showing that the cop overreacted and could have done his job without it leading to a confrontation in the first place), but your final sentence is 100% true - even if the cops were not culpable in the deaths of Garner and Brown, there's more than a few real live actual cases which should (but rarely are) addressed.
    I don't think you know what "homicide" means on an autopsy report. All murders are homicides but not all homicides are murder.

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    Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatNews2night View Post
    Now I don't understand. You seem to now contradict your earlier statement that having these videos would fix some problems but start some others.
    A video would shed more light on the incident, that's a fact

    Whether or not said new information would be good or bad, cause issues, or be ignored by people who have an issue with the cops is an entirely different discussion.

    Whether or not something will happen is a different question than whether or not it would be good if something happened.

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    Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Sure. Be all reasoned and rational and intelligent. Way to throw THAT in my face...

    I know what you mean. He's a dirty fighter being all reasonable and rational and ****.

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    Re: Police: Officer in Missouri shot, Killed man who Pulled Gun.....

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    This past summer I was out watering the last remaining live vegitation in my side yard. It was the weekend so I was dressed in my rattiest shorts and t-shirt, hadn't shaved and as I was just outside my house, didn't think to grab any sort of ID. Despite the water hose in my hand, one of my neighbors called the police to report my suspicious activity. Officer shows up and starts questioning me. He tries to make it seem like harmless small talk, asking me the names of my dogs, what year my car sitting in the drive was, things like that but I totally got that he was testing me, seeing if my answers made sense. I guess I could have clammed up and been incensed that he we questioning me of all people (why my innocence should have been obvious to him) and tell him last I checked this was still America and demand a lawyer, but all that would have done is drug out what was a twenty minute encounter. I just can't be too upset with someone who was actually potentially protecting my house. I can't even be too pissed at whichever neighbor reported me (even though I do think it a little silly).
    It sounds like you were the subject of what's technically called an investigatory detention, or less formally a "Terry stop." These are "seizures" under the Fourth Amendment, which the Supreme Court has applied to the states. What local police do, for constitutional purposes, is action by the state where they are working. These stops raise the issue, then, whether they are "unreasonable" seizures and therefore unconstitutional. Police need only a "reasonable suspicion" of criminal activity to make them, which is a less demanding standard than the "probable cause" they need to arrest a person. The Supreme Court has held that whether the suspicion is reasonable is based on "the totality of the circumstances."

    These stops have to be pretty brief, or they turn into arrests, for which--at least when first made--there was not the required probable cause. I say when first made, because during the Terry stop, the detained person may act in ways that increase the original reasonable suspicion to probable cause. Acting belligerent about being briefly questioned or asked for ID, for example, is a great way to turn an investigatory detention into an arrest. So you were smart to realize the cop had no way of knowing when he arrived what you might be up to, and not to get defensive. The neighbor's call gave him the reasonable suspicion he needed, and the fact you were on your own property didn't make any difference.

    I noticed a couple other things about the facts you related. An investigatory detention is on shaky legal ground if it goes on longer than a few minutes. The twenty minutes you describe is way too long, and anyone in that situation would have a right to excuse himself and end the conversation. If a reasonable person would not feel free to leave the situation, it means he is under arrest. Also, the cop's questions about your dogs' names and the year of your car suggest that even if he did go on too long, his training was otherwise pretty good. Those are friendly, conversational questions that tend not to provoke a hostile response. They're also just the kind of questions that someone who belonged there could answer with no hesitation, but that are likely to make someone who didn't pause, even if only for a moment, to come up with an answer.

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